Is the gun and ammo in the same case just a no-no with SAA?

I'm flying Delta and Air France on Jan 1 and 2 and it would make life much easier to throw my rifle and ammo in the TuffPak. Otherwise, I'm checking a bag just for ammo.

I know I used to do it this way all the time.

What say y'all?

Here is the Air France reg:

Hunting rifles for sport use
Air, hunting and safari rifles are regulated weapons. Transportation of these items requires specific authorization and an accord. If you plan to travel with any of these items, please indicate so when reserving your trip (by telephone or at a ticket office) to obtain the required transport authorization. You must then declare these items when you check in.

You may transport a rifle under the following conditions:


the rifle must be unloaded,
the rifle and its ammunition may be transported in the same baggage item but must be packed in separate bags within that baggage item,
the rifle and its ammunition cannot be transported in a baggage item(s) containing other personal items,
ammunition must be packed in a single container (fiberboard, wood or metal box) weighing up to 5 kg / 11 lb per passenger,
cartridges must remain in their original packaging, and any empty spaces must be filled with stuffing material to avoid slippage during the flight.

Please note: each firearm is considered a single baggage item and will be included in your baggage allowance. If you exceed the maximum number of baggage items allowed, you will have to pay a fee for all additional baggage items.

Delta's Reg:

Rifles and shotguns must be packaged as follows:
•One gun case containing rifles or shotguns, plus shooting materials and tools
•One gun case containing handguns, one scope and tools
•One bow and quiver of arrows and maintenance kit enclosed in a case or container strong enough to protect the bow and quiver from accidental damage
•No more than 11 lbs. (5 kg) of ammunition

TSA:

Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber for a rifle or pistol and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as it follows the packing guidelines described above

Looks like the regs are favorable.

Can anyone confirm having done it lately?

Will, it seems when I fly, even domestically, that they want to make sure the firearm is packed separate from the ammunition. Certainly worth checking well before starting out, regardless of what certain regs may state.

Also check on the regulations for the countries you are going to or passing thru. I seem to remember something about South Africa saying that they have to be seperate. But then again the regulations seem to change or enforced when ever the wind blows.

The fact is simply that you cannot predict with any degree of accuracy as too much discretion is held by the counter jerks. Very common in africa to be told ammo must travel COMPLETELY separate of anything else. Be on the safe side and pack your ammo in a small bright colored Pelican Case and book it padlocked as a separate piece of luggage.

The last trip I made to Africa was on Delta and was in August of 2011. Delta had no problem with it, and neither did the South Africa authorities. As long as the case locks and you don't exceed 11 lbs of ammo you are fine.

Qantas specify that they can be packed together BUT locked separately. I use to lock my Blaser in a plastic case and ammo in a separate lockable case within a Duffel bag.
Not sure if you will get away with ammo locked in rifle case though.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Is the gun and ammo in the same case just a no-no with SAA?

I'm flying Delta and Air France on Jan 1 and 2 and it would make life much easier to throw my rifle and ammo in the TuffPak. Otherwise, I'm checking a bag just for ammo.

I know I used to do it this way all the time.

What say y'all?

This past September and October I flew on United Airlines, Air France and South African Airways:

1. On both Air France and South African Airways, ammunition must be packed separately from the firearms.

2. Air France is the only airline that has ever actually inspected my ammo AND weighed it. Be sure the weight isn't over 11 lbs., that the cartridges are in factory packaging and that the ammunition is in it's own separate locked case.

3. Ammunition can be packed in your luggage going to and leaving from Johannesburg on Air France and from Johannesburg to Port Elizabeth on South African Airways but, from Port Elizabeth to Johannesburg on South African Airways, they will make you check your ammunition in a separate bag (no extra charge for the extra bag). They supplied a plastic bag into which I placed my ammunition locked in it's own special case.

4. Air France must be notified in advance (I believe 2 weeks) of your intention to travel with firearms and ammunition. You must specify both. If you get to the Air France counter and they think you're only traveling with guns, there will be a problem. Your travel agent should be able to help with this.

5. Air France also has a form that must be submitted for EACH leg of your flight declaring your firearms are unloaded, etc. This is a big deal to them. Air France personnel in Johannesburg failed to have me submit said form which caused a delay in our flight leaving Paris. I would insist the form be completed if Johannesburg Air France employees don't seem to know what they're doing and, if possible, I would have someone put their signature somewhere on a copy of the form you can keep to prove you did your part.

On my last trip, I had numerous officials ask for a "tip." In my opinion a tip to an official for doing their job is a bribe so I refused to tip anyone since to do so would be corrupting. In Port Elizabeth about 20 minutes before boarding time for the flight back to Johannesburg, someone from SAPs (South African Police) came to me and said they had forgotten to count my ammo. I went back to the SAPs office where they had me open my ammo box and accepted my word for it that each ammo box held 20 rounds; they didn't count anything except the boxes. Then they asked for a tip. This whole charade was just a ploy to ask me for a tip when I was separated from my outfitter who they knew would know better.

I flew Delta into SA the last two years and have had zero issues with the ammo being in the gun case. I would certainly copy the Delta rules and take them just in case. In 2013 I will fly the same way again. Now the Air France question is the tough part. Sounds like they might be your problem.

Don

The part that would concer me if using a Tuffpak is this:

quote:

the rifle and its ammunition cannot be transported in a baggage item(s) containing other personal items

.
I'm sure you, as most folks, pad the rifle case with misc. clothing.

There was some empty space in my ammo case I filled in with socks and Air France made no issue of that. They also made no issue of the fact I packed some small tools, binoculars and some cleaning items in my firearm case. In addition, except for the leg of my trip on South African Airways from Port Elizabeth to Johannesburg, there was no problem with having my ammo packed in its own small locked case in my suitcase with my clothing.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Looks like the regs are favorable.

Can anyone confirm having done it lately?

I flew Delta and SAA to Zim in July 2012 and packed my Guns and Ammo in my Tuff Pak without a problem. I checked my bags and gun case straight through...went through SAPS in without a problem.

I ususally put my ammo in a third soft gun case in my Tuff Pak...

quote:

I ususally put my ammo in a third soft gun case in my Tuff Pak...

That would work, smart idea.

Gents:
My short SKB case exceeds the 62 total inches adopted by most airlines. I do notice many don't measure but some do. I like the SKB as I can put my rifle and some gear in the case.

I want to stay away from the aluminum cases as there is no room for anything but the rifle itself.

Tell me, is there a Tuff Pak that is under the 62-inch limit?
Cal

Delta connecting in Frankfurt with Air Namibia in 2007: No problems with ammunition packed in the rifle case, no separation or locked boxes within the case required. Spare ammunition packed in regular luggage in ordinary cardboard 20-round boxes also no problem. Depends on the airline and the agent.

I flew United and Air Namibia this past June, no problem with ammo in the same container (Tuff Pak). I did have the Tuff Pak stuffed with clothes.

I have flown domestically with the Tuff Pak within the last month. Security didn't even open the Tuff Pak, just did an explosive scan, something I have never figured out. They certainly didn't care where my ammo was.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:


Tell me, is there a Tuff Pak that is under the 62-inch limit?
Cal

Tuffpak 1050 Specifications


Exterior Dimensions:
13" x 12"
Inside Diameter:
10"
Outside Height:
52"
Inside Height:
50"
Weight:
18 lbs.
Capacity:
2-3 full length rifles or up to 5 shotguns
in soft cases + clothing, boots, etc.
Color:
Black

Works great for me. Be sure you get the NON-TSA lock version.

In October I flew Delta domestic from Atlanta to Washington with ammo in a small pelican case packed in my checked bag. The rifle was a separate case....no problems. I checked the same setup into South Africa Air from Dulles to Johannesburg...no problems...checked again from J burg to Harare no problems...I was ready to check the pelican with the ammo separate if needed.

It is a no-no with Lufthansa.

They have been great with getting my luggage to Windhoek, but they have weighed my ammo on each of five trips.

On my way to the Caprivi in 2011, they made me take 1 bullet out to make weight.

good lord, what a pain in the a--

Rodell:
Thanks but TuffPak must make a shorter case. 12x13x52 equals 77 inches and I would like to stay under the 62 inch limit as I have several flights in 2013 and don't want to take the chance the ticket lady has a tape measure.
Cheers,
Cal

The last time I flew domestic I had to lock my ammo and place it in a suitcase seperate from the firearm.

Technically the ammo should be packed into a separate container but a lot of the airlines and indeed individual check in agents make their own rules on this one.

The best thing you can do is have a separate lockable container AND ensure there's room in your ordinary bag to accommodate that if necessary and then ask the individual check in agent what they want you to do with the ammo.

If they say put it into the rifle case, do that.

If they say in a separate lockable container just do that and check it in as required.

If they say in your ordinary baggage just put the ammo into the separate lockable container and put that int your ordinary baggage.

Doing it that way will save you no end of hassle and arguing with idiot check in staff.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:


Please note: each firearm is considered a single baggage item and will be included in your baggage allowance. If you exceed the maximum number of baggage items allowed, you will have to pay a fee for all additional baggage items.

Will,

The AirFrance rules seem very confusing to me. The part that concerns me is the above quote. Does this mean if you are traveling with 2 guns, in one case, that each gun within that case is counted as a bag, and you are charged for two baggage items?

quote:

the rifle and its ammunition may be transported in the same baggage item but must be packed in separate bags within that baggage item

How are you expected to pack a rifle case and ammo case in the same bag unless putting both into a duffel? Reading this literally would appear that a Tuffpac doesn't fully comply as the rifles are not in a separate bag within the shell.

This is very typical of all the airlines in that the rules were obviously written by someone not very familiar with firearms. The best bet is to call and speak with their customer service reps and ask directly what they want. Even at that point, I would show up with a back up plan such as rifles and ammo in the Tuffpac but with the ammo in a container that can be pulled and either be checked alone or placed in your other baggage if necessary. Then roll with directions of the check in agent.

Isn't it odd that as many times as we've made the trip over, sorting out what the airlines want is still one of the great unknowns that we sweat each time. No need for the "Camp rifle hunters" to chime in here as I'm simply not going if I can't take my own rifle. The little bit of hassel IS worth the effort.

Good luck on your safari Will. We'll miss you at the shows.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:

Tell me, is there a Tuff Pak that is under the 62-inch limit?
Cal

I use the take-down Tuff-pak. It's about 35" tall. I break my guns down, (remove the stock & scope) they will then pack in the case. I use a soft gun case to put ny barreled action in with the action just at the open end of the case. When they want to inspect the gun it is easy to pull out and repack. Most people don't know it's a gun case. It even comes out with the normal luggage once in a while. It is also easier to handle due to it's size. It weighs 12# so it is about as good as you can get to keep under the 50# limit. With guns and clothes I can usually keep it around 48#. I love it, it is so much easier to use than the long ones, I have had both..........Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:


Please note: each firearm is considered a single baggage item and will be included in your baggage allowance. If you exceed the maximum number of baggage items allowed, you will have to pay a fee for all additional baggage items.

Will,

The AirFrance rules seem very confusing to me. The part that concerns me is the above quote. Does this mean if you are traveling with 2 guns, in one case, that each gun within that case is counted as a bag, and you are charged for two baggage items?

quote:

the rifle and its ammunition may be transported in the same baggage item but must be packed in separate bags within that baggage item

How are you expected to pack a rifle case and ammo case in the same bag unless putting both into a duffel? Reading this literally would appear that a Tuffpac doesn't fully comply as the rifles are not in a separate bag within the shell.

This is very typical of all the airlines in that the rules were obviously written by someone not very familiar with firearms. The best bet is to call and speak with their customer service reps and ask directly what they want. Even at that point, I would show up with a back up plan such as rifles and ammo in the Tuffpac but with the ammo in a container that can be pulled and either be checked alone or placed in your other baggage if necessary. Then roll with directions of the check in agent.

When I was going to fly Air France, I was also confused but have learned some things:

1. It would appear they could charge you separately for 2 firearms packed in one piece of luggage but, at least for me, they didn't. Two firearms in one gun case was counted as one luggage item.

2. They are not going to let you pack your ammo in the same case as your guns are in even if packed in a separate bag within that item.

3. Good luck with calling their customer service reps. I talked to a couple and though they were nice and tried to be helpful, they gave erroneous information. I would rather recommend you use a knowledgeable travel agent like Kathi Klimes of Wild Travel.

4. Not only were the rules probably written by someone not familiar with firearms but English was probably not that person's native language.

This past September on a return flight from Zim on Delta the TSA cut the padlocks off my Pelican case which had ammo in it. It was packed seperately in my duffel. I don't think this happens often but again speaks to the vagaries of TSA practices.

Always print the TSA's and individual airlines rules concerning firearm transport. Frequently the agents don't know their own rules. If that happens I'll pull out the printed sheet and tell them that they better have someone change what it says on their website.

Armbar