Anyone ever attempted to permanently install on a bolt action rifle? I have this picture of custom shaped mounts flowing into the action rings with no seams as in a square bridge. Not being a machinist I wonder if this is possible to do accurately or has it ever been attempted. Vibration problems in the clean up of the tig welds?

Understood. Thanks.

Harre Rifle Co. at one stage produced a high quality hybrid m98/m70 style action with [the option] of integrally machined scope rings
to suite height and dia. of ones scope....- also offered were;
integ. extended tangs, integ. bolt handle, integ. face plate on t/d version.. & of course, integ. magbox bottom metal.

So it has been done. Thanks. Imagine the shop hours.

Anything is possible if you have the $$$$$.

Yes, money makes the world go round. But there are a few good reasons not to do so.Too much differences in the shape of scopes.
Opinions vary of what is the right scope for the right purpose.

BTW David Miller `s way of mounting comes very close to the desired configuration.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
Anything is possible if you have the $$$$$.

True and I do. For me, I'd probably not think the bang was worth the buck unless it had some special flair in design like 1920's art deco or something tastefully out of the norm.

quote:

BTW David Miller `s way of mounting comes very close to the desired configuration.

His system certainly appears to be the most solid system I've seen and I do appreciate the extra flairs on the caps or so it appears in photos shown from the book I viewed online about metal-'smithing. I might have to make an attempt at "putting on paper" what I envision in my head. Thanks for your reply. I enjoyed David Millers work and only wish he and his partner had a website to view.

quote:

Originally posted by heavenknows:
Yes, money makes the world go round. But there are a few good reasons not to do so.Too much differences in the shape of scopes.
Opinions vary of what is the right scope for the right purpose.

BTW David Miller `s way of mounting comes very close to the desired configuration.

When Harre Co. was producing integral scope ring actions, it did not inflate the price any more than what it would have cost
for an Echols or Miller proprietary fixed ring scope mount,... actually IIRC, the Harre integral scope ring option, cost less.

People who opt for a proprietary Echols or Miller fixed scope mount, first carefully decide what scope they want,
and the mount is custom made to required spec.
It is then highly unlikely that they will ever change the chosen fixed scope/ring setup - whilst owners of those Echols or Miller rifles.
Same applies to a person who would opt for integral machined scope rings.

i.e.; I could opt for an integral scope ring bolt action rifle in say 270win, have it all machined to ideally suite a leupold 2.5-8x36,
and be rather confident that I would have no burning need or desire, to install a different size scope in the future.

...and even if I wanted to change scopes for some reason, there are numerous other scopes that would still fit very nicely in
the integral rings.

Fully understood and well written BTW. I've recently been paying much more attention to scope tube dimensions as in available space for scope rings fore and aft and eye relief, power settings and length of pull, etcetera and how they relate to each other. Change one and the domino effect could ensue quite readily. I just bought a 3.5X10 VX3 for a single shot that I ordered because I like the longer than average tube length and I actually shortened the length of pull from my original order as well. Spent enough years stretching my neck at higher settings. Time to try some adjustments. Ray

I believe another source of something similar in times past was Patrick holehan.

http://www.plholehancustomrifles.com/index.htm

Thanks for the site link. Looks like their current customs utilize a Tally. If there is an older seamless system produced by them, I'd like to see a pic or two. To reiterate/clarify a bit more: What I'm trying to get away from as in exposed screws, numerous pieces, square corners, etc., although I hear those Tally mounts are solid as a rock. I did some drawing yesterday and came up with a design with no exposed screws, holes or clamps visible. Unfortunately, although very stylish and appealing, the slim-line design is such that too little metal won't support the hidden ring screws unless I go with a micro screw then I'm concerned about impact sheer. I could beef it all up but then I'll lose the slim and sleek look I am after.

Yes. Here in Britain by a David Lloyd. Personally I think that it is a stupid idea.

It precludes replacing a 'scope QUICKLY should it be damaged, precludes taking it off the rifle to avoid that damage in the first place whilst in transit.

And most important prevents an "upgrade" to a more modern 'scope at a later date. Think illuminted reticules, bloomed lenses, and any other developments since the original 'scope was fitted.

See here or Google other images using David Lloyd or David Lloyd Rifle:

http://www.bing.com/images/sea...E0E5&selectedIndex=5

I would appreciate a photo of his permanent one piece scope mount base. Since Mr. Lloyd and also his Wife who operated the company after his death have long passed, little information on your observation is available.

Not to re-ignite the Echols thread, but his scope mounts are probably my favorite aspect of his rifles. As I describe in my article, if the primary scope goes down, you'll already have a pre-zeroed scope in your case that is then secured into the rings/mount. Scopes break, best to be prepared for when they break far from home.

D'arcy certainly is a master. I'll just take a backup gun zeroed in in the same caliber and cartridge load along for longer trips. I hunt the U.S. only and would drive not fly. But, for overseas (if I ever get there) I definitely would definitely take a rifle with more conventional mounts along with an extra scope and tool kit.

I believe Brent Clifton was the smith in Medina,Tx that was making integral mounts on the barrel for a certain style "scout" rifle. I visited his shop shortly before he moved to Houston. He advised that while it looks really cool and they made a lot of money on them, it was not practical-wear out the barrel, loose your mount and rings.

As I recall his barrel blanks were H U G E
They still looked really cool!

quote:

Originally posted by uwave:
I believe another source of something similar in times past was Patrick holehan.

http://www.plholehancustomrifles.com/index.htm

We have custom rifle smiths[Holehan and others] who weld square bridges to the front receiver ring
and we also have some custom smiths who don't it and don't recommend it.

It would be good to have some clear empirical engineering and metallurgical science data
to know whether it should be done[welded].. or not.

we have resolved the M98 re-HT issue,.. yes? ..

As a novice, I find it is better to have it and not need it rather than the opposite in many cases not just wear resistance on guns. Therefore I put my trust in those who most likely have a great deal more knowledge than I, whether from experience, scientific evidence or simply an inclination or a combination. I've also learned that heat-treatment is only possible if one knows the metal composition. I'm sure liability comes into play somewhere along the line. Just more food for thought. All opinions are respectfully accepted.

A fair number of Lloyd rifles pass and have passed through Holts's Auctioneers here in England. If you go to www.holtsauctioneers.co.uk and the use the search tools for past sales and just enter the word Lloyd you'll find some good pictures.

But, again, FWIW you either love or loathe them. personally I think they are awful and I'd sooner never shoot again that be left with only a Lloyd rifle as my only shooting option.

http://www.dorleac-dorleac.com...lking-rifle/?lang=en

Adam

I have 2 with double square bridges tigged on by David Christman. After all metal work was done David sent the receivers out to be recased.

This is my Mexican 7X57.



This is my 9.3X62 on a Banner Mauser.

Thanks Butch. I never tire from seeing that Mexican. Very sweet. Both rifles' scope bases are nicely blended to the rings. Sure wish I wasn't too cheap to buy a CAD system. My drawing abilities leave a bit of room for improvement. My idea of seamless includes a ring system where the entire bottom half of the scope ring (similar in design to the Tally lightweights designed by Forbes)is permanently mated to the action. Keep 'em coming. Ray

I don't think its possible for a number of reasons at least not a hunting rifle that will be used in some pretty remote places..We have all pondered this, but in reality its a poor way to go..Some reasons to consider are what if the scope goes bad, Everyone at some time wants to change scopes for various reasons, QDs are a boon to a hunting rifle, especially a DG rifle, its just not practical, and I cannot conjure up in mind any positive reasoning to do so..Holding its zero? I think not, what if the stock warps, what if the gun is dropped and the scope bent or a million other demons that hide in our gun cases...

the closest I would go with that is dovetailing double square bridges with QD rings.

perhaps a set of integrated bases/rings like Hart makes...?

A set like you mention would make swapping them out an hour job, plus resighting.

Ray.....imagine an action machined from a solid bar where the bottom half of the ring assembly is part of the action. To me it is the next step above a double square bridge. No mating issues to be concerned about as with conventional removable scope bases such as unequal contours, broken screws. Then there are the cosmetic issues as exposed screws, exposed levers and/or clamps/unclean lines that if alleviated would match the flair of a well executed and expensive build. As far as quick change of a scope,,,I agree that I can't come up with any quick re-scope configuration for my vision. I got it down to 1 (one) barely visible screw underneath the bottom ring. Because of the minimal clearance in that area it will take some time to remove the screw so quick change is out of the question. I think on the right rifle it would look like a million bucks. But you'd better be certain of your placement. It's going to be the most solid system out there. But, once it's done, it's permanent. So, I doubt it'll fly. But, if I had the equipment would be fun to make up a prototype on a cheap action. Non-DG only (no barrel sights) because of base-line of sight issues) Thanks for your professional opinion and everyone else who replied as well. Appreciate it. Ray

custombolt,
That would be awesome, and like I've always said if you got the bucks to spend there are guys out there that can perform Prodagies, but I wouldn't want to be in the same shop when they got the bill..and like you said it would be strictly for scope use and most folks today don't even consider iron sights.

Reading Wiebbes post got me to wondering why one couldn't tig weld on the square bridges then send the action off to be hardened to specs?? Am I missing something?

There are a lot of square bridge Mausers floating around out there that I'm sure were only heat sinked or whatever to keep the front ring within specs, I guess it works, there still shooting them..I would prefer an action milled with Square bridges to start with.

I have seen some claw mounts that I believe were welded as opposed to soldered, at least there were ever so small holes to be seen.

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
Ray.....imagine an action machined from a solid bar where the bottom half of the ring assembly is part of the action...

..But, once it's done, it's permanent. So, I doubt it'll fly.

Owners are likely to never change the proprietary Echols& Co... or.. Dave Miller Co. fixed scope rings installed on either of those rifles when ordered.
So why would a similar rifle [with bottom of rings integral to the action] pose a problem?

If I owned the Echols mauser you see in the link above, I would never change the mounts installed, and probably never change to a different scope.
So the same rifle built with an integral ring action would only be a +plus strength feature to me.

Having said that, I could still fit a 1.5-5x,3-9x,3.5-10x, or 6x36 Leupold in those same rings, probably even a 3-9x Swarovski.
You could tell Echols that you want to be able to fit a shortish 2.5-8x Leup. or larger objective 6x42 Leup. or older Zeiss 3-9x36 C
in the same rings, ...and he would build the scope rings accordingly.

...and if someone was still producing custom integral ring actions you could request the same thing.
The problem is availability, in that no one is any longer making CRF actions with the bottom of the scope ring integral to the receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
custombolt,
That would be awesome, and like I've always said if you got the bucks to spend there are guys out there that can perform Prodagies, but I wouldn't want to be in the same shop when they got the bill..and like you said it would be strictly for scope use and most folks today don't even consider iron sights.
***I thought the same in that irons are of little concern at least on thin skinned game rifles.
Reading Wiebbes post got me to wondering why one couldn't tig weld on the square bridges then send the action off to be hardened to specs?? Am I missing something?
***From an appearance standpoint, it would make no difference to me whether the end result is from a combination of square base plus the lower ring section or a one piece bottom section. Eventhough I have 0 experience machining metals, the least amount of machining seems to make more sense.

There are a lot of square bridge Mausers floating around out there that I'm sure were only heat sinked or whatever to keep the front ring within specs, I guess it works, there still shooting them..I would prefer an action milled with Square bridges to start with.

***Like Mr. Wiebe mentioned earlier in so many words, much is possible if you want to pay for it.

I have seen some claw mounts that I believe were welded as opposed to soldered, at least there were ever so small holes to be seen.

***Thanks for the insight.

Claw mounts....Efficient and elegant for a long time now.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
Ray.....imagine an action machined from a solid bar where the bottom half of the ring assembly is part of the action...

..But, once it's done, it's permanent. So, I doubt it'll fly.

Owners are likely to never change the proprietary Echols& Co... or.. Dave Miller Co. fixed scope rings installed on either of those rifles when ordered.
So why would a similar rifle [with bottom of rings integral to the action] pose a problem?
***It wouldn't unless you want/need a quick change set-up. My interest is mostly aesthetic. But I'll certainly take the extra strength.

If I owned the Echols mauser you see in the link above, I would never change the mounts installed, and probably never change to a different scope.
****Did you refer to Butch's post which referred to the SB's by David Christman?

So the same rifle built with an integral ring action would only be a +plus strength feature to me.
****Yes. My main point.

Having said that, I could still fit a 1.5-5x,3-9x,3.5-10x, or 6x36 Leupold in those same rings, probably even a 3-9x Swarovski.
You could tell Echols that you want to be able to fit a shortish 2.5-8x Leup. or larger objective 6x42 Leup. or older Zeiss 3-9x36 C
in the same rings, ...and he would build the scope rings accordingly.

...and if someone was still producing custom integral ring actions you could request the same thing.
The problem is availability, in that no one is any longer making CRF actions with the bottom of the scope ring integral to the receiver.

****So I hear. Well....you know what they say, it's not what I need...it's I what I would like to have. I really enjoyed the chats on the subject thanks to the replies and as always the eye candy pics from Butch.

Trevor Proctor used to produce mounts that were machined from billet split vertically on the top only. The bases were machined to match the action and silver soldered. The scope was inserted by removing the turrets and eyepiece ie Swarovski Nova.

The result is elegant, absolutely bombproof and allows scope replacement in an hour or so if absolutely required.

Of course this was in the day when it was possible to shoot a deer with 4 or 6x and without twiddling a host of useless bells and whistles. The only issue with the system is that some Novas are getting rather yellow in the lenses.

The system was produced when mounts were pretty poor. There was a brief period when some mounts were pretty good (Warne Premier) but now most of them are pretty crap too.

Curmudgeonly yours 1894mk2

Not exactly what you're looking for, but I saw a fellow at a benchrest match that made a sleeve for an XP100 where he made the sleeve and rings out of one piece of aluminum. Never saw that before.

Here's what Holehan does. This is a Rigby on a Dakota action.








While nice, difficult to distinguish from a set of Warne's on my .375 H&H because of the rings.





Personally I prefer a set of custom bases (by Jim DuBell) with Conetrols on top.






The finished product.

I think the type of mount you are looking for is eminently practical, specially if you use low power scopes with removable turrets for DG. You don't even have to have fully split rings with those, just split in one side or the top of the rings. To change the scope one simply loosens the split a bit, takes off the turrets, and slides the old scope out and the replacement in. Can do it all in less than 10 minutes. I know because I have owned older rifles like that which were made in Europe.

The system I personally like best is the old Holland & Holland one. In the H&H system, the front rings claw mount into the receiver ring, and a square post on the rear ring fits into a square hole in the receiver bridge.

There is a spring-loaded push-button fitted into the side of the bridge to release the rear post, and the whole scope & mount assembly is simply tipped up out of the claw receptacles at the front.

And the Hollands' are made to fit either single square bridge or double square bridge actions.

BTW, I've owned a bunch of Mausers by Mauser, Holland's, etc., where the bridges were HARD soldered to the action bodies. Never had a problem with any of them, and never heard of anyone else who did either. Mine included cartridges such as the .275 H&H Magnum, .280 Kynoch (AKA Ross), .404 Jeffery and 10.75x68 m/m.

As with most things in life, the craftsman is at least as important as the technology...and with modern tools, the technology does allow a good craftsman to do things even better as far as safe workmanship (Tig compared to oxy-acetylene welding for example).