Kevin Weaver recently wrapped up my bost recent build. The rifle has a 23" Krieger Barrel, NECG sights, Belgian blue finish, Talley mounts, straight and checkered bolt handle, English walnut stock from Heritage Walnut and Williams bottom metal. I had Kevin do the rifle in a English style with a slim forend and pancake cheek piece. Kevin was his own take down technique that he used on this rifle for a great compact travel package.



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WOW!!!

Please post on the take down feature? It looks like an interrupted thread? I am most intrigued. Stunning rifle!

Beautiful!
I've been waiting to see the pictures, I saw the rifle in progress at Kevin's and he said he thought you were going to post pictures on AR.
Very nice travelling rifle set up and super nice wood.
Kevin does some beautiful work.
Fal Grunt the takedown is not interrupted thread.

Have you been shooting it yet?

Wow...what a piece. I had the 8th rifle Kevin made some time ago...Weaver Rifles #8. I was a Mauser in 270 AI...not nearly as exquisite as this one!

Really beautiful workmanship. I would appreciate seeing a closeup of his barrel/receiver takedown system.

Nice.I like the walnut-congtatulations!

Thanks for the kind words guys. Kevin asked me not to post any detailed photos of the take down system.

I haven't gotten to shoot it yet but I'm going to get out there soon!

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Kevin asked me not to post any detailed photos of the take down system.

Bummer, but totally understandable.

Gorgeous! although the take down system is neat, I think it takes away from the appearance of the gun.
I would not turn it down though. Beautiful workmanship!

I like everything about it except for the area around the triggerguard. For some reason that triggerguard looks a little long or a little big or something.

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Kevin asked me not to post any detailed photos of the take down system.

Bummer, but totally understandable.

Not to me, it isn't. Is it supposed to be a trade secret, are there plans to patent it? I'd like to know more about his reasons for wanting to keep the details secret, it will have a definite influence on my opinion of him and his work.

I gotta ask myself, "Why would a professional (who's confident in the quality of his work, that is) NOT want to show off the details to the buying public?"
Regards, Joe

I have to agree with this and would be a bit hesitant to deal with a gunmaker who is secretive about ANY aspect of his craft.

However, I DO respect YOU for having the integrity to keep your committment to the maker and not post the pix.

Kevin is a great young 'smith and that is a beautiful rifle Geoff! I am sure you will put it through it's paces... and I look forward to seeing it featured in future hunt reports.

quote:

Not to me, it isn't. Is it supposed to be a trade secret, are there plans to patent it? I'd like to know more about his reasons for wanting to keep the details secret, it will have a definite influence on my opinion of him and his work.

Normally I would agree with you. But as a young custom gun builder I cannot tell you how "secretive" almost every smith I have encountered has been. I have only met 2 custom gun makers that have been forth coming with their processes, methods, and ideology. Even more so, those that have "unique" or niche products refuse to give any information, patented or not.

Maybe I should start a different thread as not to hi-jack this thread and distract from such a beautiful rifle. From my personal experience the firearms and custom gun industry is a VERY closed doors "secretive" industry.

I'm very sorry to hear that, Nathaniel. VERY sorry!

Let me be very clear on this. IMO any smith who keeps his methods and details a secret is, ultimately, proving himself to be an incompetent amateur and a selfish asshole.

It's too bad that you've seen only the folks who have no confidence in themselves and their skills. Any competent and confident workman should be proud and happy to pass along his knowledge and skills, that's part of the 'love for the work' that a craftsman MUST feel in order to do the best job. You need to tell those guys to grow up and play with the adults. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

quote:

IMO any smith who keeps his methods and details a secret is, ultimately, proving himself to be an incompetent amateur and a selfish asshole.

Seems a little over the top to make such an accusation.

Incompetent amateur and an ass#$%@ ? I seriously doubt that given the workmanship and as previously mentioned he requested no detailed pics of the takedown system.

How ya doin' Dempsey?

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
I'm very sorry to hear that, Nathaniel. VERY sorry!

Let me be very clear on this. IMO any smith who keeps his methods and details a secret is, ultimately, proving himself to be an incompetent amateur and a selfish asshole.

It's too bad that you've seen only the folks who have no confidence in themselves and their skills. Any competent and confident workman should be proud and happy to pass along his knowledge and skills, that's part of the 'love for the work' that a craftsman MUST feel in order to do the best job. You need to tell those guys to grow up and play with the adults. JMOFWIW.
Regards, Joe

Its obvious you don't know the first thing about this gunsmith.
How 'bout you back away from your outlandish accussations and just let this topic be what it is supposed to be a man posting pictures of his beautiful rifle built by one hell of a gunsmith.
If you want to tear this down and make it negative well then you are off to a good start.
Is this what every post on AR is becoming?

quote:

Originally posted by Karnis:
...... as previously mentioned he requested no detailed pics of the takedown system.

does the smith allow a prospective customer to closely inspect the details of his t/d system before one orders & pays for a rifle?

...if a friend comes over, or you have it for sale at a show are you allowed to let them inspect it????

I specifically made a trip to SCI & ACGG Reno, to inspect & discuss all manner of t/d bolt rifles,
none of the makers seemed to make out like their t/d rifles were based on some closely held secret rocket science techniques of construction.

The take down system is very simple and works very well. Kevin knows he won't be able to keep it a secret for long but asked me to not post pictures to keep it as an exclusive as long as possible.

I have know doubt that Kevin would explain it in detail over the phone or cleary show you at a display he might have. He just did want it online.

If me not posting detailed pics helps him and his family eat then I'm ok with that.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Let me be very clear on this. IMO any smith who keeps his methods and details a secret is, ultimately, proving himself to be an incompetent amateur and a selfish asshole.

My opinion and I stand by it 100%.

My impression from reading the post was that both the poster and the smith were relative newbies and had, so far at least, encountered some very negative and off-putting people who had given them the idea that secrecy was the rule rather than the exception. That's NOT a good thing for either the individual smith or the broader quest for better smithing.

Please see the AR Gunsmithing forum for multiple examples of top-notch smiths proudly revealing their 'secrets'. That's because they're confident that their expertise is more important to the client than any gimmick or secret they may use in the short term.

The workmanship appears to be quite good and I'm sure he's an expert at making things work properly. But apparently he doesn't yet have enough confidence in his own expertise to reveal his 'secrets', and prefers to rely on an artificial and all-too-temporary edge for more short-term profits.

That's NOT the way to build a good long-term professional rep, IMO. A quick study of smithing and shooting history will soon reveal that the smiths who keep secrets and refuse to release proprietary information ultimately either fail at their business or die in obscurity without achieving anything but a bad memory in folks' minds. Jerry Gebby is perhaps the prime example of this selfish asshole attitude, he tried to hog the 22-250 and now in shooters' minds he's just another failure with a bad rep.

The rifle appears to be a work of art and I wish the smith and the owner all the luck in the world, but I DO hope the young man changes his mind about keeping secrets and begins following The Golden Rule.
Regards, Joe

Several of the top smiths have shown their work on the forum and answered questions. Duane Wiebe comes to mind. Am I threat to any of them, Hell No.
Butch

Some of you guys take yourselves way to seriously. no cure in sight.



Hello Karnis, I wondered when you'd make it over here. A guy can only take so many McSwirlys.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Let me be very clear on this. IMO any smith who keeps his methods and details a secret is, ultimately, proving himself to be an incompetent amateur and a selfish asshole.

My opinion and I stand by it 100%.

My impression from reading the post was that both the poster and the smith were relative newbies and had, so far at least, encountered some very negative and off-putting people who had given them the idea that secrecy was the rule rather than the exception. That's NOT a good thing for either the individual smith or the broader quest for better smithing.

Please see the AR Gunsmithing forum for multiple examples of top-notch smiths proudly revealing their 'secrets'. That's because they're confident that their expertise is more important to the client than any gimmick or secret they may use in the short term.

The workmanship appears to be quite good and I'm sure he's an expert at making things work properly. But apparently he doesn't yet have enough confidence in his own expertise to reveal his 'secrets', and prefers to rely on an artificial and all-too-temporary edge for more short-term profits.

That's NOT the way to build a good long-term professional rep, IMO. A quick study of smithing and shooting history will soon reveal that the smiths who keep secrets and refuse to release proprietary information ultimately either fail at their business or die in obscurity without achieving anything but a bad memory in folks' minds. Jerry Gebby is perhaps the prime example of this selfish asshole attitude, he tried to hog the 22-250 and now in shooters' minds he's just another failure with a bad rep.

The rifle appears to be a work of art and I wish the smith and the owner all the luck in the world, but I DO hope the young man changes his mind about keeping secrets and begins following The Golden Rule.
Regards, Joe

Did someone say Duane Wiebe?

My last take down rifle.....Not bad for a "newbie"


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Sadly I don't own this one anymore.

J.D.Steele,

Perhaps the true asshole is the guy staring back in the mirror at you in morning while brushing your teeth.

I live about 10 miles from Kevin and have been in his shop on numerous occasions as he has done work for me.

I'd venture to guess that if you actually knew the guy, you'd certainly call him something other than an asshole.

Beauty of a rifle!!!!!

Cheers,

Graybird, so OK he's maybe not really an asshole most of the time but let's just say he's acting in a manner that can easily be confused with various pejorative terms like childish, ignorant, selfish, amateur, self-defeating, short-sighted, unChristian, etc.

It's my impression that his policy wasn't/isn't cast in concrete and that he's mainly ignorant of the truly unselfish attitude of Duane and other AGCC members who freely share their knowledge for the betterment of us all. Perhaps a little time reading the posts on the Gunsmithing forum will open his mind and heart.

No, I was mainly talking about the REAL assholes who gave him the cold shoulder when he asked for their suggestions. I'd like to meet a few of them up-close-&-personal so I could tell 'em what I REALLY think of 'em without having to watch my language!

And yes, I myself am fully capable of being a world-class asshole most of the time.

But I'm not trying to sell you anything and at least I try to help folks by sharing my knowledge and offering advice. The Golden Rule.
Regards, Joe

A very well written and clearly stated commentary, one definitely KNOWS where Joe stands on a given subject!

Joe can pizz me off sometimes, but, I will say that I do respect his honesty and, no offence intended to the smith or owner of this lovely piece, but, I do agree with his stance on this issue.

Geez, I would hate to see what Joe is like if he gets REALLY haywire!!!

J.D. Your "Golden Rule" is a bunch of crap. Last I checked people are in the business of making a living not making people like you happy with all the intimate details of how they make that living.

Okay: I had (still have) this marvelous idea for a unique firearms accessory.

So marvelous that I ended up having a conference with a patent attorney.

If I make this "widget" to sell for $50.00.I'd have to sell 1000 units just to cover the patent search

I was further advised that I could go ahead and make the item, descibe it fully and actually make one! Then, devulge the whole thing in a publication.

While this does not keep others from the manufacture of the item, I have protected my patent rights.

Oh...there's a lot of whereas's and whyfor's, but if Kevin seriously believes this T D system is truly innovative and original..seek the advice of a patent attorney

JD has been kind enough to help me with a couple projects. Do we always agree? No, but we respect each others right to their opinion.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:
J.D. Your "Golden Rule" is a bunch of crap.

Clearly and cogently stated, dempsey. You have indicated just exactly HOW you prefer for others to treat you and that's your privilege, I'm quite sure it's the way you treat everyone else too.

You have a good day now, y'hear?

Duane, I appreciate your comments more than I can say. I'd forgotten about the article publishing even though I've done it myself. An added benefit for Kevin's rep and future business would be for him to write it up and submit it to some national publication, he'd become MUCH better-known overnight!

IMO we're all here to help each other because we all love the art & craft of making fine firearms even better. That doesn't mean that we all hafta like each other's actions all the time but IMO it DOES mean that we should all try to help each other as much as possible. Costs the same to help as it does to hurt so why not help?

But I hafta keep remembering that no good deed goes unpunished......
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Dewey:
A very well written and clearly stated commentary, one definitely KNOWS where Joe stands on a given subject!

Geez, I would hate to see what Joe is like if he gets REALLY haywire!!!

Thanks Dewey, that comment was also made by several of my co-workers at different times. I keep remembering the lines of a Country song by Aaron Tippin, "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything!" Trite but true.

And I too would hate to actually LOSE my temper, ever again. Satisfying at the time but the remorse when viewing the results afterward can be unpleasant.....
Regards, Joe

Perhaps Kevin is already talking to a patent attorney about the possibility of his system going that direction and is awaiting an outcome. Or maybe deciding if he should contact one and wants to protect it till he makes a decision. Can't fault him or anyone in that position for that.

If it is truely unique, why shouldn't he be first in line to take possesion of the rights to it rather than give it away for the pleasure of some 'thanks for sharing' comments at this point.

For now,,sit back and enjoy pics of a beautiful piece of craftsmanship.
One way or another the deep secrets of the TD will be known to all sooner or later and all will be well in gunsmithland once again.
You just might not be able to copy it w/o paying for the privilege that's all.

Beautiful rifles,,,both of them!

quote:

Clearly and cogently stated, dempsey. You have indicated just exactly HOW you prefer for others to treat you and that's your privilege, I'm quite sure it's the way you treat everyone else too.

This from the guy that just called the Smith of this rifle an asshole

Using your logic Lilja should make public exactly how he makes his buttons, Duane should give all his data that his machines use to make bottom metal etc etc. I suppose the term intellectual property is over your head.

Duane already told you the best way for him to protect his intellectual property and also for him to enhance his professional image. Go back and read his post. A nicely-photographed article would certainly go a long way to show off both the rifle and the smith's expertise, while unquestionably protecting his interests and increasing his customer base.

You're just mad 'cause I disagreed with you(G).
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

Using your logic Lilja should make public exactly how he makes his buttons, Duane should give all his data that his machines use to make bottom metal etc etc. I suppose the term intellectual property is over your head.

There is quite a difference between what you are terming "intellectual property" and what most here are talking about. I do not know the legal definition of intellectual property and what, if anything, that definition accomplishes without a patent. I do not think anyone is advocating Mr. Wiebe publish his blue prints for his bottom metal, but if someone wanted a picture of his bottom metal I seriously doubt he would deny them.

As an example, the Tool and Die shop I work for makes a product for Remington 700's. We have installed them on a few military sniper rifles for testing with whom we designed the product. I looked into getting a patent for us, but like Mr. Wiebe our product would only sell for $75-$100, which makes it entirely un-profitable to patent.

At some point we will make a "public" release of the product and I will sell it on boards, gunbroker, at my shop, etc. People will certainly copy the product, but there is one thing dividing our product from theirs. Our product is absolute top quality, made of the best materials available and designed in a manner that works beautifully.

Back to the original subject of the beautiful rifle. I asked the owner originally to see pictures of the system because I am interested in how his smith tackled the question. I have a few idea's of my own, I have looked at other systems, and will continue to explore until I find a system that works adequately. To share the idea to me is to share your creation. I hope that his smith is either patenting the process or will at some point share it, because I do believe he would stand to gain business with sharing, not lose it.

On a similar note, octagon barrels have been an interest of mine of late. I have no idea how Ralf Martini makes his barrels, or anyone else for that matter, so I have been developing my own technique. If someone asked me how, I will be happy to share with a potential client or interested person. Will I give them the blue print information? No, not hardly. But, I would be happy to tell them the process.

So, Geoffe, I apologize for stirring up quite an issue! You have a beautiful rifle, from a very talented young custom builder. I also applaud you for giving one of us young "newbies" a chance!

Well, I don't give a rat's ass if Kevin makes everybody happy by sharing his techniques or not, but that doesn't take away from the beauty and craftsmanship which is evident in this rifle.
Kevin just finished the metalwork on a pre-'64 in .264 Win Mag for me, which Jim Bisio at Heritage Walnut is also stocking. He has been honest and straightforward with me, a real pleasure to deal with, timely (yes,you read that right,a timely gunsmith!)and if my rifle is half as nice as this takedown, I'll be pleased.
I'm also glad to see that he does nice take-downs, as my next project is a .404J, and I can't think of a better caliber for a TD.

Just to make sure I'm understood by all...I'm not offering legal advice...just passing on a part of a conversation. Check with a legal professional

J.D.Steele - why must you resort to name-calling to make your point?

There is no need for it. It degrades the quality of the discourse.

I tend to agree with your central point, absent the nastiness, of course.

But it's hard for me to get past your disrespectful and insulting remarks. IMHO, a more civil approach would serve you far better.

GeoffM24, I like the Weaver rifle well enough, but, IMHO, you do it a disservice by posting photos of Duane Wiebe's rifle on the same thread.

The Wiebe rifle is far superior to the Weaver in every apparent respect.