Is the SxS above the 2012 raffle?

Steve, Thanks for posting...
Now I can loosen my tie and kick my shoes off, was starting to get a little stuffy in here!

Mike: Yes...that's the 2012 ACGG project..not too shabby????

I would rate it as "fair plus" at least...LoL...

Absolutely gorgeous...

Funny, I wouldn't even know about the guild if it weren't for Duane Wiebe and AR.

It is unfortunate that many not all of the people who have posted on this thread have no idea what is required to build a rifle or a shotgun to the level of #27 posted by SDH (great pic btw). In fact, those same people will never own a firearm built by a member of the Guild but will post negative things and pile on the person who provides the rationale why the promotion is done that way. The Artisans in the Guild who perform the individual operations that contribute to the project do so taking time from normal business operations that generate income.

With that being said and I will address the “promotion” part later it is absolutely not fair to the people working on a current project to have anything taken away from their efforts. God Forbid people start making comments on the internet chat boards like this, various firearms shows or wherever “I am going to wait till next year because it is going to be a restored 21 by Dennis Potter and he is going to have Andrew Mcfarlane rust blue it –read it on AR and besides this year’s project is in a useless caliber”. What do you think that will do for the motivation of people to take on a task with in some cases donated materials only to have in the back of their mind that their hard work could somehow be eclipsed by a future project?

For those who do not realize the Artisans who do this work enjoy the time in the limelight generated by the interest in the Raffle Project. Pretty simple actually and for some of you who have read my posts know that I enjoy immensely tearing people apart who deserve it but am showing restraint here because there is quite a bit of ignorance being shown. To put it bluntly I could care less about what people think of me because I will call a spade a spade but when I am wrong will freely admit it.

For the person that referred to Charles Grace the President of the Guild as “Chucky” do you not understand why people like that avoid chat boards like this like the Plague? I know several people who are the best in their fields who you cannot pay to post on internet chat boards.

Now for the valid points made --- I will agree 101% that the Guild has done an abysmal job of promoting the member Artisans in the past and this is starting to change! For those of you who attend the SCI Show in Dallas there will be a presence of Guild Members (Not an Official Guild Event) displaying at the show this Winter. There is no doubt in my mind that the current Leadership within the Guild are looking at other means to increase the presence of their Organization.

Think about this the next time you want to be less than respectful to people who come here and post because it diminishes the collective. Now if you want to be ugly to me go ahead and take your best shot!

Boss Hoss your opinion of marketing and the results couldn't be more wrong. A rising tide floats all ships.

Nor are the project artisans donating their time, they enjoy the proceeds from the raffle tickets. Plus it's hoped that the publicity will result in work to them. However they need to market their efforts. You can't tell one to not market simply because others choose not to.

Plus if one thinks the current project is in the wrong caliber what makes you think they will buy tickets simply because they have no idea what's coming down the road?

quote:

It is unfortunate that many not all of the people who have posted on this thread have no idea what is required to build a rifle or a shotgun to the level of #27 posted by SDH (great pic btw). In fact, those same people will never own a firearm built by a member of the Guild...

I wouldn't loose any sleep not owning a rifle built by a Guild member.
Some of the best rifles are built by smiths that are not ACGG members.

I am sorry but do you really think the promotion of one rifle or shotgun detracts from another? Your argument might be valid if these projects were competing against each other. They are not. The point is to promote the workmanship of the guild members. It is also supposedly meant to increase the awareness of the guild itself. First from the publics side it is not a decision of having to choose between two or three firearms each costing 10 to 20k$. It is a matter of buying however many $20.00 rallfe tickets one wants to spend. Even if it is not in a favourite caliber or style I dont see this making a difference. How many people would not spend the $20 for a chance at a custom firearm valued 50 times more? You should be promoting every project and the guild as much as possible. That includes pictures and explanations of the steps invlolved. The guild and its members are absolutely the best at their craft. However you all need some remedial training in business. Your marketing and advertising skills can use some help. Everytime I think the guild is going to make a leap forward it seems the guild manages to shoot itself in the foot. It is the unwillingness to accept change and embrace new ideas that I find most puzzling. I wish nothing but the best for all of you. I hope that you will look at this thread and comtenplate on it. Please do not take offense at any of it. I do apologize for the bit of rude treatment you received. Most of us here support you and only want to help. You make that difficult when you shut us out. There is no need to circle the wagons and go into a defensive posture.
Best wishes
Michael Smith

That was supposed to be 500 not 50 times more. Besides my memory issues my typing skills have allso gotten worse. Thankks for allowing my littlle rant here.

quote:

Besides my memory issues my typing skills have allso gotten worse

To say nothing about your shooting skills!!!

Trax: You are spot on...we'd like to attract those talents, thereby raising the high water mark...which, of course is our goal.

I sort of promised I would not get further embroiled in promotion or non promotion. My initial post was in good faith. There was and is still not any type of prohibition against promotional timing .

I'd sure like to hear the reaction if I were to complain that posting of someone else's work is diverting attenion away from me..WOW!

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Trax: You are spot on...we'd like to attract those talents, thereby raising the high water mark...which, of course is our goal.

I sort of promised I would not get further embroiled in promotion or non promotion. My initial post was in good faith. There was and is still not any type of prohibition against promotional timing .

I'd sure like to hear the reaction if I were to complain that posting of someone else's work is diverting attenion away from me..WOW!

We know how Duane feels.

What I dont understand is the guilds thinking,
Our poo poo doesnt stink .If it was not for the internet,a lot of people wouldnt know about the guild. Even then what is known is limited. Most people dont even KNOW there is a custom gunmakers guild.
Tom Turpin and SDH has done more for outside awareness then the guild itself has ever done by the promotions of the custom gun through there books. Tell me where the guild has promoted itself to a point a co- worker would come up and say, "did you see what..."name"... built."
You cant even buy there mag. off the magazine rack.They could have more subscribers, or sell more tickets, but they are to busy promonting themselves than the custom gun! Its a shame too, as I enjoy seeing the craftsmanship in all these builds from all of the guild members as would a world of new people if only it wasnt some kind of a close net secrect.
Death ears I know, I'm done!

I would not know much of anything about the guild if not for this site. I graduated from the Colorado School of Trades and naught a word about the ACGG.

It is mainly through my following of Guild members (not knowing they were members) that I started to see and hear about the guild.

There sure seem to be a lot of attacks on the guild these days.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
There sure seem to be a lot of attacks on the guild these days.

Terry

Hi Terry, just for the record I don't think anyone on this thread is attacking the Guild. I surely am not. It appears to me that Guild members are attacking one of their own for daring to promote his own work which is being done on behalf of the Guild. Any positive publicity a Guild member can generate benefits all members.

I find the Guilds stance on Duane's actions very foolish and counterproductive. I am not attacking the organization simply pointing out what I find to be poor decision making by the current powers that be.

quote:

Now if you want to be ugly to me go ahead and take your best shot!

Boss

I don't want this to be perceived as a "shot".

But I do disagree with the theory that one has to have an idea of what is required to build a guild quality rifle or shotgun, or to have owned such a rifle or shotgun, in order to have an opinion as to whether a friend of theirs, whether they have met him in person or not (I have) has been unjustly criticized for an action taken.

Some folks that post on this board know business, know promotion, know how to write ad copy, and know how to sell. I get the impression that what they are really saying is that based on their experience they do not see the "Guild" as using best practices to promote itself.

Even Presidents and CEOs who run very large corporations hire outside marketing firms to promote their business. And while I agree that it was a bit unpolite to call Mr. Grace "Chucky", I don't think its incorrect to suggest that Mr. Grace may be a much better gunmaker than he is a promotional expert.

I pay pretty close attention to all of the custom gun literature, and I had no idea what the next ACGG raffle gun was going to be. NONE!

Although I could never prove it, I strongly suspect, as it appears many others here do, that there will be far more tickets that go unsold for the current project because nobody knows about it due to lack of promotion, than there will be less tickets sold because Mr. Wiebe promoted his team's gun.

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Although I could never prove it, I strongly suspect, along with many others here, that there will be far more tickets that go unsold for the current project because nobody knows about it due to lack of promotion, than there will be less tickets sold because Mr. Wiebe promoted his team's gun.

I second that opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
The Artisans in the Guild who perform the individual operations that contribute to the project do so taking time from normal business operations that generate income.

This shows how poorly you understand the way the raffle is run. Because of this, and your past accusations about the credentials of one of the guild's most prominent member's, I have to question the rest of your "knowledge" regarding the guild.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
I find the Guilds stance on Duane's actions very foolish and counterproductive.

I'm not sure that I have seen where the guild has taken a stance, one way or the other on Duane's actions.

I do see that they said(through Chuck Grace) that the guild only promotes the current project. I don't see where they said that it is forbidden for members to promote their own future raffle projects.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Trax: You are spot on...we'd like to attract those talents, thereby raising the high water mark...which, of course is our goal.

Those highly successful/talented independent outside smiths most likely have more to offer the Guild than the Guild could offer them. They go to the effort to represent themselves at SCI exhibitions.
Why ACGG doesn't do the same at the annual Reno SCI, baffles me.
However, I do enjoy perusing the tables in the quiet atmosphere of ACGG shows.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Why ACGG doesn't do the same at the annual Reno SCI, baffles me.

+1. I was gonna say the same!

JBrown the below leads me to the conclusion that they, The Guild has taken a stance. I am willing to be corrected if I have drawn a wrong conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
22WRF; Probably not because I promoted it on AR, but that I promoted "too soon"

The reason given is that it may take away attention to the present project. One is to believe that a potential ticket purchaser will withhold his $20.00 to await a project he likes better.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:


Anyway...I am now the subject of a complaint to the ACGG Ethics Committee!


How outrageo;us" I actually promoted the above mentioned project on AR . Shit! how bad can it get? Baby Rapers...step aside!! You are now in the big time! I had the gonads to ac tually promote a Guild project...can't get worse than that !

I'm sure this posting will generate yet an other ehics complaint....wish I really gave a shit !

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Grace:
Promotion is done on the current project and tickets are sold until the winning ticket is drawn. No other future projects are promoted during that year to be fair to the craftsmen involved and maximize ticket sales. Mr. Wiebe, as project chairman of the 2014 rifle chose to promote the project even though it isn't due for another couple of years.

Thank you, Chuck Grace, President, American Custom Gunmakers Guild

Seems to me they have taken a stance and that the stance was taken as a result of a member filing a compliant against Duane with the Ethics Committee.

How about a couple more pix of the raffle gun? A Spectacular 1894 Remington for 2012! ... and give it a rest ... buy some tickets.

Here is a little clue to quality, Wanna recognize good checkering? Don't try to look down the lines for straightness, look across the points of the diamonds, shows here clearly as very straight and uniform lines with great layout and superb execution, really wonderful by Stockmaker Doug Mann! Metalsmithing by Larry Peters, Engraving by Kenny Majors, finishing by Pete Mazur.
All supporters please purchase tickets:
ACGG



(SDH Photos)

Incredible, stunning, spectacular.

How about re-posting where and how tickets can be purchased.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Seems to me they have taken a stance and that the stance was taken as a result of a member filing a compliant against Duane with the Ethics Committee.

The way I read that was that the guild itself does not promote any project except the current one. I don't see where they say that an individual member can't promote whatever they want.

But I may have misunderstood.

I'm not sure why some of these guys don't just pack up and leave the guild altogether. Do they feel like they owe it something?

Really nice photography Steven!!!!!

Any successful organization looks at its strengths and takes advantage of them. The Guild is very fortunate to have a member who is as experienced and creative with photography as you are.

If I were running that show, which of course I am not, I would figure out a way to have those photos in every outdoor sporting goods store in America, and maybe a 30 second spot on a few of the hunting shows on TV. You'd sell all of your tickets.

I noticed something very very interesting on another forum (knifedogs). It says this

"You can have your own sub-forum starting at $100/annually.
The advantage of having your own forum is you have instant and highly visible internet presence. We can have your forum set up and operating in just minutes. If you are a Knife Maker or in some aspect of the knife business,
having your own forum is a highly effective way to reach out to your clients. See the FAQ page for detailed information."

I don't know if Saeed offers that here on AR, but he probably could, and maybe should. And then the ACGG could have their own forum here on AR, which would allow the Guild to be much more visible, and allow the members to post photos of their recent works, allow the Guild to better promote its projects, and a host of other good things.

IMHO #27 is for me the one I have liked the most since I have been buying tickets for the Guild Projects. The pics by SDH are a primary reason that this project will generate good ticket sales not to take away from the great craftsmanship that is very evident in any way it just shows everyone what great work looks like.

If anyone wants to put my name on the tickets they buy please let me know!

Hi to all of you:

I'm the "wood butcher" on the 2012 Remington 1894 raffel gun that SDH was kind enough to post pictures of.

I don't get to this forum very often and for that I am the poorer. I just don't have the opportunity to do rifles very often, I'm mainly known as a shotgun guy. Hey I live in Illinois that should explain most of my issues.

First off, some of the criticism of the ACGG is justified. We do a lousy job of promotion - I mean really bad! However we are trying to change that. Part of our problem is that we are custom gunmakers who like to sit at our bench and do artsy fartsy things - promotion to us means going from first to second grade. We are also guilty of allowing the perception of a "good old boys club" to prevail. I'm not saying that some of that perception is not true but if it is it has to stop. We, as a Guild, are trying to change and part of that change is a non-offical presence at the DSC in 2012 with the offical ACGG exhibition at DSC in 2013. Hey I'm not stupid, if I'm given the chance to show my skills to 30,000 vs 500 guess where I want to go.

I really hope that we members come across as nice approachable people. I really enjoy talking to people whether they are prospective clients or not. I do make one exception to that. A few years ago I had a guy come by my table that was drinking mouth wash for the alcohol content. That was an interesting hour of conversation :-)


Doug

quote:

First off, some of the criticism of the ACGG is justified. We do a lousy job of promotion - I mean really bad! However we are trying to change that. Part of our problem is that we are custom gunmakers who like to sit at our bench and do artsy fartsy things - promotion to us means going from first to second grade. We are also guilty of allowing the perception of a "good old boys club" to prevail. I'm not saying that some of that perception is not true but if it is it has to stop. We, as a Guild, are trying to change and part of that change is a non-offical presence at the DSC in 2012 with the offical ACGG exhibition at DSC in 2013. Hey I'm not stupid, if I'm given the chance to show my skills to 30,000 vs 500 guess where I want to go.

Customfox, I only wish I could "butcher" up a blank like you do! Thank you for posting, and I get the feeling there maybe some changes comeing. I dont know a group of people more hard headed than gun people... and I dont know of a group of people who would give you the shirt off there back for another gun nut. There are thousands of people out there hungry for the kind of work the ACGG puts out, you just have to make room for them in the tree house!

Doug your position is a breath of fresh air. I hope it can prevail.

One suggestion I would make as an admirer and frequent visitor of the Reno show is to allow only new work to be displayed.

Many of the members bring the same old work year after year.

Howard & all:

I understand you feeling on only showig new work at the exhibition and I kind've sort'a agree. The problem for me anyway (that's why I don't show every year) is that the only new work I have to show belongs to clients. Many of them have said that they would be please to have their gun shown at the Guild show. I'm just very reluctant to ship expensive guns half way across the country that don't belong to me. If UPS or FedEx destroys my stuff that's one thing but my client's is another. I hope that I will have something special of my own to show this year and if I do I plan to fly it with me in one of those indestuctable hard cases i.e. Pelican etc. If the plane crashes I probably won't care about the gun anyway.

I forgot to properly thank Steve Hughes for the pictures that he posted here. He also sent me a set to post on the "shotgun" sites. So thanks again Steve!

BTW, Steve thinks I'm a little crazy because I really like to checker ;-)

Doug

Customfox, Absolutely stunning. Some of the nicest checkering I have seen in awhile. There is nothing lacking on the entire piece. You all did very nice work. Thanks to Steve for the excellent photos. They will go a long way in promoting ticket sales.

Now that we have all had our say it is time for us to put up and buy some tickets as well.

Biebs, We will not even talk about my shooting at this point. I have not shot any high power and really nothing else since Dec. The focus and concentration just are not there. No reloading either. The neurologist and surgeon told me I will most likely get back to normal eventually. It is how long eventually is that no one can tell me. After eight months it is getting old. I was not ready to retire yet but the choice may have been made for me. Time for me to think about a large going out of.. sale. Even at that I will still buy some raffle tickets to support these guys.

Duane, any pix of the 2022 Guild Gun yet? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Duane, any pix of the 2022 Guild Gun yet? :-)

Bet you could sit on an ice cream cone and tell the flavor...

What does the Guild do to promote the Raffle rifles and the Guild? I don't read many gun mags so maybe I've missed ads. If not for places like this I would have no idea it even existed.