The Accurate Reloading Forums
Winchester Model 70 in .416 Rigby
03 January 2012, 03:13
Michael AliulisWinchester Model 70 in .416 Rigby
Anyone seen a custom shop rifle from Winchester in .416 Rigby for sale? How about anyone converting a Pre-64 or Classic action to that caliber? I read an article that Sterling Davenport from Arizona had converted rifles to .416 Rigby, but I think he retired?
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
03 January 2012, 03:20
BiebsMichael, welcome to AR. One would have to do some serious work on a Model 70 I would think to acomodate the 416 Rigby.
03 January 2012, 04:15
Charles_HelmThere was one on Gunbroker several months ago. Was tempted to bid on it but didn't. I believe it was a Custom Shop rifle.
I looked back at some notes and I believe it was up at the end of June. It was described as unfired.
03 January 2012, 07:27
Michael AliulisI was the high bidder on that one from Midwest, Gunbroker was having issues at the close of auction, and they wouldn't honor the deal. They called me and said they were relisting it(very rude like I did something wrong)and blocked me from bidding.
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
03 January 2012, 07:33
Charles_HelmThat is strange. I suppose it eventually sold, have not looked.
03 January 2012, 07:54
Michael AliulisIt did for a couple hundred more then I bid. I had bought items from them over the years, never again!
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
03 January 2012, 08:04
BaxterBI always thought the 416 Rigby M70 Custom Shop was a misprint that they readily rectified. Interesting they actually did it! Would love to see one and what it took to get it done.
03 January 2012, 08:27
Michael AliulisI've seen two total in my search. The one a few months back that looked great and a Pre-64 at Bass Pro that was put together by Griffin & Howe that was also nice.
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
03 January 2012, 14:23
michael458quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Michael, welcome to AR. One would have to do some serious work on a Model 70 I would think to acomodate the 416 Rigby.
I concur completely, it would be quite a mission to do this, and have a working rifle. I knew the folks at the New Haven Custom Shop rather well. Good Folks, Leslie Dengler being the Custom Shop head honcho was a good gal, but they did not have the expertise to do this job. I am pretty sure I recall speaking to her about that and she told me they had never done one yet. But that is my memory of it and that is not always correct. I have never heard of one being done, and confirmed from the Custom shop, but like I said I could be wrong about it too. They did some things up there that I did not always know about too!
I know today that it would be a really big deal to do a Rigby case on a M70. Feeding is not the issue, it's retaining in the magazine that is the major problem. I am sure you could only get two rigbys down, which is fine, but even then I don't think you would ever get them to retain in the magazine as the bolt is drawn back.
Welcome Michael to AR! Glad to have you! Was the rifle you were looking at on Gunbroker a true Custom Shop rifle? That would be interesting. They always came with a letter from the Custom Shop as well.
I tell you what a mission and how finicky that retaining issue is. We deal with it all the time on the 500MDMs and the 50-475-458 B&M, Brian at SSK can sort those out in pretty short order. But The Custom Shop did a series called the Big 5 Series, a 338 Win, 375 HH, 416 Rem, 458 Win and 470 Capstick! All of these H&H based cases, of which Winchester has done a good job with and up to 458 Lott. Since they did not know any better they did nothing to the 470 Capstick, and it was just enough bigger than the 458 Lott that those guns WOULD NOT retain in the magazine at all! I had two of those, sent both back to the Custom Shop for them to sort out, and of course they could not do so. Those guns never retained, and those were still H&H Based cases. Some years later I started working with SSK Industries doing the B&M rifles and Brian sorted out the retaining issue on those without a problem. So if they could not get a H&H based case to retain in the magazine, no way they could get a Rigby to do so.
When Winchester did the 300 RUM M70s some years ago they did serious modifications to the action to get the RUM case to work proper. Well, the RUM is a good bit bigger than the H&H based cases, but they did it, and did it well! Those actions are very desirable to build on, and the only Win M70 that I can put my own 500 MDM on without an issue at all, and since it's a RUM based cartridge, it's a perfect fit, but even still we have to do some work to get those to retain since introducing a much heavier bullet in the end of the cartridge than the 300RUM uses, but it's not a big hairy deal. I would think that it might be more possible to put a Rigby size diameter case on this action than standing a chance of doing on anything else. And this RUM action did not come from the Custom Shop, it was a production model.
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
03 January 2012, 21:15
j stoviakI have a new classic model 70 built to Lazzeroni Warbird. This is basically an improved Rigby necked to 30 cal. Holds 2 down and feeds perfect. Fast, slow, sideways, upside down etc. I may have got lucky but it seemed pretty easy for the smith. Krieger barrels put the rifle together for me many years ago when the Lazzeroni calibers first came out. Also have a short action classic 70 in 35 eagle which is a shortened Rigby to 35 cal again a Lazzeroni cartridge. This one has a drop box and holds 3 down. Feeds perfect just like the Warbird. This one was done many years ago by a smith who used to work for Harris Gunworks in AZ. I believe his name was Lars Larson.
04 January 2012, 01:37
Michael Aliulisquote:
Originally posted by michael458:
quote:
Originally posted by Biebs:
Michael, welcome to AR. One would have to do some serious work on a Model 70 I would think to acomodate the 416 Rigby.
I concur completely, it would be quite a mission to do this, and have a working rifle. I knew the folks at the New Haven Custom Shop rather well. Good Folks, Leslie Dengler being the Custom Shop head honcho was a good gal, but they did not have the expertise to do this job. I am pretty sure I recall speaking to her about that and she told me they had never done one yet. But that is my memory of it and that is not always correct. I have never heard of one being done, and confirmed from the Custom shop, but like I said I could be wrong about it too. They did some things up there that I did not always know about too!
I know today that it would be a really big deal to do a Rigby case on a M70. Feeding is not the issue, it's retaining in the magazine that is the major problem. I am sure you could only get two rigbys down, which is fine, but even then I don't think you would ever get them to retain in the magazine as the bolt is drawn back.
Welcome Michael to AR! Glad to have you! Was the rifle you were looking at on Gunbroker a true Custom Shop rifle? That would be interesting. They always came with a letter from the Custom Shop as well.
I tell you what a mission and how finicky that retaining issue is. We deal with it all the time on the 500MDMs and the 50-475-458 B&M, Brian at SSK can sort those out in pretty short order. But The Custom Shop did a series called the Big 5 Series, a 338 Win, 375 HH, 416 Rem, 458 Win and 470 Capstick! All of these H&H based cases, of which Winchester has done a good job with and up to 458 Lott. Since they did not know any better they did nothing to the 470 Capstick, and it was just enough bigger than the 458 Lott that those guns WOULD NOT retain in the magazine at all! I had two of those, sent both back to the Custom Shop for them to sort out, and of course they could not do so. Those guns never retained, and those were still H&H Based cases. Some years later I started working with SSK Industries doing the B&M rifles and Brian sorted out the retaining issue on those without a problem. So if they could not get a H&H based case to retain in the magazine, no way they could get a Rigby to do so.
When Winchester did the 300 RUM M70s some years ago they did serious modifications to the action to get the RUM case to work proper. Well, the RUM is a good bit bigger than the H&H based cases, but they did it, and did it well! Those actions are very desirable to build on, and the only Win M70 that I can put my own 500 MDM on without an issue at all, and since it's a RUM based cartridge, it's a perfect fit, but even still we have to do some work to get those to retain since introducing a much heavier bullet in the end of the cartridge than the 300RUM uses, but it's not a big hairy deal. I would think that it might be more possible to put a Rigby size diameter case on this action than standing a chance of doing on anything else. And this RUM action did not come from the Custom Shop, it was a production model.
Michael
The one on Gunbroker was a Classic Custom Safari Express, I don't think it had the letter but they had close up pictures of the Model/Caliber.
By the way, you are winning my Ultramag on Gunbroker, I bought a Super Grade in 300 RUM.
Michael
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
04 January 2012, 01:53
505EDI have seen a number of them done. Aleko Jensen at Heritage arms had a really well done one a few years ago at his shop. It held 3 down and was a gem. It fed slick as could be. Tip Burns did one around 2 years ago I saw at his shop. It held 2 down--plain gun but functioned perfect.
Ed
DRSS Member
04 January 2012, 02:39
capowardquote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
Anyone seen a custom shop rifle from Winchester in .416 Rigby for sale? How about anyone converting a Pre-64 or Classic action to that caliber? I read an article that Sterling Davenport from Arizona had converted rifles to .416 Rigby, but I think he retired?
Standard length M98 Mauser actions have had their magazine wells safely opened from 3.40” to 3.60” to handle longer cartridges…a modern M70 should be able to safely have the magazine well opened from 3.6” to 3.8” to accommodate the .416 Rigby cartridge.
If you’re not adverse to a limited production or wildcat/semi-wildcat cartridge…then you might want to look at the Lazzeroni 10,57 Meteor cartridge with is a limited production .416 caliber cartridge using a slightly shortened .416 Rigby case with a 3.5” overall case length. Otherwise perhaps a .416 caliber wildcat cartridge using the .338 Lapua case as the parent cartridge…this one should be at or under 3.6” length with hunting bullets.
Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne 04 January 2012, 05:32
Charles_Helmquote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
The one on Gunbroker was a Classic Custom Safari Express, I don't think it had the letter but they had close up pictures of the Model/Caliber.
Michael
I asked the seller about Custom Shop documentation and he said he did not have it.
04 January 2012, 05:46
zimbabweI have had one Mdl 70 from the custom shop and it DID NOT have any letter. It was a 375H&H and had some of the prettiest wood I have ever owned.
SCI Life Member
NRA Patron Life Member
DRSS
04 January 2012, 06:48
Michael AliulisI've been after this gun for a long time. I know its a needle in a haystack but I'll keep looking.
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
04 January 2012, 07:11
Brad aka Pill ShooterFYI I bid on the Midwest relist but I remember it finally sold for I think $2300 too much for my tastes since I picked up a nice RSM with scope for $1200.
Brad
04 January 2012, 08:30
sactollerHere is one my buddy has.
Jason Z Alberts
“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you." – Samuel Adams
04 January 2012, 09:01
Blake7062Lex Weberneck at Rifles Inc. builds them.
04 January 2012, 09:23
Michael Aliulisquote:
Originally posted by sactoller:
Here is one my buddy has.
What's the story on this rifle? Nice wood!
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
04 January 2012, 14:05
michael458quote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
Michael
The one on Gunbroker was a Classic Custom Safari Express, I don't think it had the letter but they had close up pictures of the Model/Caliber.
By the way, you are winning my Ultramag on Gunbroker, I bought a Super Grade in 300 RUM.
Michael[/QUOTE]
HEH HEH..... Yes Michael, that is me! I found out this morning I just bought your 300RUM!
Listen, sent you a couple of emails and both were returned to me as a mail delivery problem of some sort. Sent an email to my girl at the bank and a check should leave today. Sent FFL to you, but I got that mail delivery notice back???? Headed to the airport shortly and headed to DSC in Dallas until the first of the week. If you did not get the FFL via email, then I will sort that out first of the week for you. I am not taking a computer with, so I won't have access until I get back. Just a heads up, don't want you to think I am some sort of con man or something! HEH HEH.......
Well, again, welcome to AR!
Michael
http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.htmlThe New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"
I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.
04 January 2012, 18:58
bwanamrmI have one of Sterling Davenport's .416 Rigby's built on a classic Model 70 action. She holds three down thanks to Sunny Hill bottom metal and shoots lights out with the old Federal gold box Premium ammo topped with 410 grain Woodleighs! This rifle has been one of my "go-to" rifles for Africa for years!
On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch...
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
- Rudyard Kipling
Life grows grim without senseless indulgence.
04 January 2012, 19:40
Michael Aliulisquote:
Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I have one of Sterling Davenport's .416 Rigby's built on a classic Model 70 action. She holds three down thanks to Sunny Hill bottom metal and shoots lights out with the old Federal gold box Premium ammo topped with 410 grain Woodleighs! This rifle has been one of my "go-to" rifles for Africa for years!
Any idea if he is still around?
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
04 January 2012, 20:07
bwanamrmSterling is still around and lives in Tucson though like many gunmakers is getting on in "experience" and is covered up with work. I can pm you his number or you can google him and find it. I don't think he is taking any more orders but only he can tell you for sure.
On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch...
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
- Rudyard Kipling
Life grows grim without senseless indulgence.
10 January 2012, 09:31
AfricanHunterquote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
Anyone seen a custom shop rifle from Winchester in .416 Rigby for sale? How about anyone converting a Pre-64 or Classic action to that caliber? I read an article that Sterling Davenport from Arizona had converted rifles to .416 Rigby, but I think he retired?
G & H made some up in .378 Wea., at least 2 that I have seen.
13 January 2012, 22:46
xausaFrom: Bill Warren [mailto:wtwiii@wk.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:26 PM
To: Paul Chapman
Subject: Winchester model 70 pre 64 416 Rigby - Rifles - African Dangerous Game Safari Magazine
Paul,
I stumbled across this rifle while looking for something else and it started me thinking: Is this a conversion you are still performing? Do you recommend it?
Are there feeding problems that need to be resolved? How do you deal with the fact that the .416 Rigby loaded cartridge is .120" longer than the .375 H&H?
Will the Model 70 bolt face safely open up to accomodate the Rigby case head?
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100118176 Can you give me a ball park figure on the conversion, if feasible?
I have a Model 70.375 H&H with a shortened barrel which would be ideal for such a conversion, if you give it the green light, and the price doesn't stretch my bank account too much.
Thanks,
Bill Warren
Hello Bill,
Not sure if we spoke about this but we do not recommend this conversion as too much has to be removed from the locking lug to fit and feed the cartridge.
We had one where the lug was recessing and causing excessive headspace and inconsistent vertical stringing.
Paul Chapman
Vice President
Director of Gun Smithing
Griffin & Howe
(908) 766-2287
chapman@griffinhowe.com
33 Claremont Road
Bernardsville, NJ 07924
Please save the date to join me if you can for:
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Jan 6 thru 9 Dallas SCI, TX
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Griffin & Howe Live Shoot Dates book your peg now
Oct 25, Nov 22, 2010 & Jan 17, 2011
Call for details
13 January 2012, 22:47
xausa[QUOTE]Originally posted by xausa:
From: Bill Warren
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 4:26 PM
To: Paul Chapman
Subject: Winchester model 70 pre 64 416 Rigby - Rifles - African Dangerous Game Safari Magazine
Paul,
I stumbled across this rifle while looking for something else and it started me thinking: Is this a conversion you are still performing? Do you recommend it?
Are there feeding problems that need to be resolved? How do you deal with the fact that the .416 Rigby loaded cartridge is .120" longer than the .375 H&H?
Will the Model 70 bolt face safely open up to accomodate the Rigby case head?
http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100118176 Can you give me a ball park figure on the conversion, if feasible?
I have a Model 70.375 H&H with a shortened barrel which would be ideal for such a conversion, if you give it the green light, and the price doesn't stretch my bank account too much.
Thanks,
Bill Warren
Hello Bill,
Not sure if we spoke about this but we do not recommend this conversion as too much has to be removed from the locking lug to fit and feed the cartridge.
We had one where the lug was recessing and causing excessive headspace and inconsistent vertical stringing.
Paul Chapman
Vice President
Director of Gun Smithing
Griffin & Howe
(908) 766-2287
chapman@griffinhowe.com
33 Claremont Road
Bernardsville, NJ 07924
14 January 2012, 09:10
Michael AliulisAny pictures of your gun from Sterling around?
quote:
Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I have one of Sterling Davenport's .416 Rigby's built on a classic Model 70 action. She holds three down thanks to Sunny Hill bottom metal and shoots lights out with the old Federal gold box Premium ammo topped with 410 grain Woodleighs! This rifle has been one of my "go-to" rifles for Africa for years!
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
14 January 2012, 18:30
bwanamrmI do not claim to be a professional gun photographer but here she is...
I was counting as I posted the pix... 3 elephants, buffalo, leopard, 2 hyena, civet, bushpig, warthog, impala, and a grysbok! Pretty darn versatile when you consider the animals taken with this rifle, from the biggest to smallest targets in Africa.
On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died.
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch...
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
- Rudyard Kipling
Life grows grim without senseless indulgence.
14 January 2012, 21:40
ScrollcutterYears ago in Gun Digest, I saw a 5 gun pre-64 Winchester set from G&H.
22 Hornet on the small end and 416 Rigby on the other...don't remember what the rest were.
Roger Kehr
Kehr Engraving Company
(360)456-0831
15 January 2012, 01:35
Michael AliulisThanks for the great pictures, very nice looking firearm, exactly what I want to get!
quote:
Originally posted by bwanamrm:
I do not claim to be a professional gun photographer but here she is...
I was counting as I posted the pix... 3 elephants, buffalo, leopard, 2 hyena, civet, bushpig, warthog, impala, and a grysbok! Pretty darn versatile when you consider the animals taken with this rifle, from the biggest to smallest targets in Africa.
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
20 January 2012, 07:37
jeffeossoquote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
I've seen two total in my search. The one a few months back that looked great and a Pre-64 at Bass Pro that was put together by Griffin & Howe that was also nice.
there are exactly 2 made...
would require a fantastic smith to make feed properly..
the seller, if you met their terms, is LEGALLY obligated to sell you the rifle if you met the terms of the auction -- and, btw, every JERKWAD that says "for sale locally" and pulls an auction that "sold locally" is also in legal violation -- once the reserve is met, its a legal contract.
20 January 2012, 08:05
Michael AliulisI agree but Gunbroker wouldn't do anything and Midwest was pulling the "malfunction" excuse. They didn't care about losing customers, just about making more money on the rifle.
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
I've seen two total in my search. The one a few months back that looked great and a Pre-64 at Bass Pro that was put together by Griffin & Howe that was also nice.
there are exactly 2 made...
would require a fantastic smith to make feed properly..
the seller, if you met their terms, is LEGALLY obligated to sell you the rifle if you met the terms of the auction -- and, btw, every JERKWAD that says "for sale locally" and pulls an auction that "sold locally" is also in legal violation -- once the reserve is met, its a legal contract.
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
21 January 2012, 00:27
TwoZeroquote:
Originally posted by xausa:
...We had one where the lug was recessing and causing excessive headspace and inconsistent vertical stringing.
Paul Chapman
Director of Gun Smithing
Griffin & Howe
I think part of the 'problem' with such conversions is that guys see the big Rigby case and try to load it to it's full 'potential'.
When all the early guns were built for a 410gr bullet at 2350fps out of a 28" test barrel.
As long as one stays close to the origional loading - and assuming the person who did the conversion knew what they were doing, I would have no problem owning such a gun...
21 January 2012, 03:49
BaxterBbwanarm, that is one handsome rifle!
NOt to make more work for you but I bet just more than me would like to see some close-ups of the action to see how Sterling accommodated the big Rigby.
Very nice rifle!
06 February 2012, 01:52
470EDDYI had a 416 Rigby custom on a Pre-64 Mod 70 (300H&H )action on order with Lee Kuhns for over 18 years. Unfortunately it still sits unfinished in his shop....he passed away over a year ago now. Really don't know if it would feed correctly, which caused me concern as to why this was toking so long...!! He consulted with Al Beisen and Jerry Fisher who both did these conversions. There are a few floating around out there...
It was just too expensive to take it on unfinished with everything still left to do...guess I will never know??
470EDDY
08 February 2012, 07:39
Paul Wquote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
Anyone seen a custom shop rifle from Winchester in .416 Rigby for sale? How about anyone converting a Pre-64 or Classic action to that caliber? I read an article that Sterling Davenport from Arizona had converted rifles to .416 Rigby, but I think he retired?
I have a pre-64 winchester for sale in .416 remmington. not the exact same as .416 rigby details if interested, regards, Paul W
08 February 2012, 07:48
Michael AliulisAlready got one of those, thanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Paul W:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Aliulis:
Anyone seen a custom shop rifle from Winchester in .416 Rigby for sale? How about anyone converting a Pre-64 or Classic action to that caliber? I read an article that Sterling Davenport from Arizona had converted rifles to .416 Rigby, but I think he retired?
I have a pre-64 winchester for sale in .416 remmington. not the exact same as .416 rigby details if interested, regards, Paul W
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
05 July 2012, 09:37
Michael AliulisI found one at Cabelas!
http://www.cabelas.com/product...tt=winchester+customOn its way to a Cabelas near me!
Dakota Traveler .458 WM
I believe that is the very rifle that sactoller posted pictures of earlier in this thread.