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Anybody know Charley Santoni (RifleStockPainting.com)

This topic can be found at:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7971019521/m/9141038642

29 October 2018, 21:51
drm-hp
Anybody know Charley Santoni (RifleStockPainting.com)
I have hade Charley do work for me in the past, and all went well, very happy with the work and cost.

In 2016 I sent him the following barreled actions:
1 @ Montana 1999 action, Krieger barrel 6.5-06.
1 @ Montana 1999 action, Krieger barrel 35 Whelen.

Due to no fault of his the desired stocks never made themselves available. So I have decided on another course of action. It was mutually agreed upon that he would send them back to me.
This was 17 July, 2018.
He is now not responding to E-Mail and has never taken my call.
I can supply the complete E-Mail chain to prove what I say, I just need some help getting my rifles safely returned to me.

Thank you,

Doug
29 October 2018, 23:42
max(hm2)
been there with him. if it plays out like mine you will eventually get your firearm back with a good story for sure
30 October 2018, 03:02
butchlambert
Haven't used Charlie in a while, but he treated me great.
30 October 2018, 04:04
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
He's up to his eyeballs in his new business venture and...he's darn near a bionic man with his series of back surgeries...he'll get your stuff back to you..
30 October 2018, 04:21
AnotherAZWriter
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
He's up to his eyeballs in his new business venture and...he's darn near a bionic man with his series of back surgeries...he'll get your stuff back to you..


Perhaps but that is no way to treat a customer.


Don't Ever Book a Hunt with Jeff Blair
http://forums.accuratereloadin...821061151#2821061151

30 October 2018, 04:39
drm-hp
All,
I am not going to pass judgment, I just want my rifles back.
If any of you can get ahold of him, I would appreciate it.
This is not how I wanted to deal with this, he brought me to this.
Doug
30 October 2018, 20:16
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
Called Charley...let's not get into another feeding frenzy!!!
30 October 2018, 21:09
drm-hp
Thank you Duane. If that solves my issue, problem solved.

Doug
30 October 2018, 23:07
butchlambert
It has been a couple years, but Charlie has finished a couple rifles for me. It was very reasonable and great work.
31 October 2018, 07:06
craigster
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Called Charley...let's not get into another feeding frenzy!!!


He took your call.

He won't take drm-hp's call.

???
31 October 2018, 20:41
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
I think the matter is settled
17 December 2018, 21:42
drm-hp
All,

I have called and E mailed him to no avail.
I am at a loss as what to do! Any suggestions?
I don't want to involve P.D. or B.A.T.F&E.

Doug
17 December 2018, 22:36
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
Shit! sorry to hear that..
17 December 2018, 23:52
butchlambert
quote:
Originally posted by drm-hp:
All,

I have called and E mailed him to no avail.
I am at a loss as what to do! Any suggestions?
I don't want to involve P.D. or B.A.T.F&E.

Doug


I hope you have better luck with the BATF than I. Fortunately a young PD investigator took my case and run with it.
19 December 2018, 05:50
Mike_Dettorre
I had a similar issue with a smith in MT.

I believe this gentleman is in California.

I would call local law enforcement, State DOJ, or BATFE and say:

"I am the owner of two firearms that are in the State of California and I no longer know where they are at or whether there are being stored safely because Mr. Santoni has seamed to have disappeared." CA law is very strict about firearms storage. I believe he is in Woodland which is close to Sacramento so cll State DOJ. You might get lucky.

This may seem harsh but take a step back and consider the timeline and the otherside. It has been 6 months and it takes about 1 hour to box up two rifles and drive them to the post office. Regardless of how busy he is, I am sure has had 1 hour in the last six months.

BTW, you aren't getting law enforcement involved Mr. Santoni's actions have gotten law enforcement involved.

Also, if you google his name you see there are other similar complaints on calguns.net and 24hr campfire.

In my case the smith also had a small retail shop and said one of his "employees" inadvertently sold my gun.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
22 December 2018, 00:06
larrys
I had the same issue with Charley. He supposedly "shipped the rifle to the wrong person and had to get it back". Six months later I got it back and the Cerakote was so thick that I had to scrape it off the bolt rails and locking lugs just to get the bolt to operate and close properly.

I wish you the best of luck.


Larry

"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson
22 December 2018, 20:30
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
The sharks are circling!!!
22 December 2018, 22:42
Mike_Dettorre
Alternatively, a reasonable assessment of the information presented to date.

Nobody would tolerate this behavior from any kind of service provider...not from a mechanic, not from a guy fixing their wive's sewing machine.

To make matters worse, this guy doesn't even have to finish the work, he simply has to return the items.

Happy to change my mind if somebody can come up with a plausible explanation as to why the items could not have been shipped immediately following July 18th when he told the customer he would or immediately following what appears to be a statement he made to Duane in late October.

"Sharks circling" implicates an unfair or unwarranted commentary.


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
22 December 2018, 23:28
craigster
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:


"Sharks circling" implicates an unfair or unwanted commentary.



+1, It's a warning circle.

I thought about sending him a stock a while back, glad I didn't.
23 December 2018, 21:20
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
So...Mike: Where were you when the AR "Gentlemen" jumped all over Steve Button's back for having the audacity to post about a serious financial issue he had with
Ted Blackburn?
23 December 2018, 22:19
Mike_Dettorre
Nowhere, as I wasn't aware of it.

If the situation was similar and had I seen it, I would have probably posted something similar.

I must have missed the memo that states if you don't reply to posts about topic A which relates to situation Z, you are now prohibited from replying to future posts about topic A which relate to situation Z Smiler . Is there also a memo that states if you choose to reply to a post about topic A which relates to situation Z, that you are now obligated to contribute to other future posts about topic A relating to situation Z? Smiler


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
24 December 2018, 22:25
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
Not looking for debate...Just pointing out inconsistency
26 December 2018, 16:47
Mike_Dettorre
Please refer to the last item of the series in the first line of my signature. Big Grin


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
26 December 2018, 20:47
Duane Wiebe (CG&R)
Gonna be busy that day
11 January 2019, 22:27
PWS
Looks like I'm in the same boat. I sent a stock to my smith to have a drop floor plate installed, he did the necessary work and sent it (and another stock) to Mr. Santoni for painting about a year ago and has been left in the dark since.
16 January 2019, 03:31
drm-hp
An update,

I have tried calling him weekly, on different days and times, to NO avail. I believe he sees the signature of my call and denies it, as it normally rings only 1 to 3 times before it goes to voicemail. Occasionally I leave a message, but not every time.
The real problem is that I have retired, sold my home and am moving to another state, IN FEBRUARY, and yes I did tell him that in one of my messages.
I do not want to make the next logical step forward, as that will get ugly, quick! I am still hoping he reads this and returns MY belongings to ME.

Doug
23 January 2019, 07:36
Jmbrown
May want to try calling him off of someone else’s phone. I had to do that with a taxidermist that had been screwing me around for 3 years. The conversation got quite entertaining when he answered and I told him who it was.
04 May 2019, 10:28
Tommyhawk
drm-hp, Any news? Were you able to get your stuff back?
11 May 2019, 09:31
JBrown
quote:
Originally posted by Jmbrown:
May want to try calling him off of someone else’s phone. I had to do that with a taxidermist that had been screwing me around for 3 years. The conversation got quite entertaining when he answered and I told him who it was.


I did the same thing once. After having a smith repeatedly fail to answer my calls on an uncompleted project I called from someone else's phone. Magically he answered that time. I wonder how that happens?


Jason

"You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core."
_______________________

Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt.

Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry
Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure.

-Jason Brown
11 May 2019, 10:59
PWS
No good news in my case and it's now approaching a year and a half. He didn't answer when I tried in January and I've never made prior contact. The phone went immediately to voice mail so he's probably just screening everything.
11 May 2019, 18:10
packrattusnongratus
Make a trip and take a sheriff's deputy to the location with you. Get your gun and go home. Packy
11 May 2019, 19:45
craigster
quote:
Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Make a trip and take a sheriff's deputy to the location with you. Get your gun and go home. Packy


Easier said than done. Santoni is in CA, Doug is in MI.
11 May 2019, 20:17
Mike_Dettorre
California Dept of Justice has its own Firearms Bureau

There are like a CA ATF headquartered in Sacramento

Phone: (916) 227-7527


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
18 May 2019, 12:37
TC1
I would send him a few certified letters explaining you want your property back and nicely tell him how you plan to proceed (law enforcement, BATF, etc.) if it isn't done in a timely manner before going any further. Make copies, you may need them as proof you've attempted to recover your guns. It's not expensive and will let him know you are serious about this matter. Also, he can't deny that contact was made. I've had something similar happen to me and that was the advice I was given. It worked for me.

Best of luck.


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
18 May 2019, 21:45
lindy2
I have had two somewhat similar experiences. On one the local law enforcement decided they would rather not get involved because "it was a civil matter. And on the other, the local law enforcement did get involved by sending an officer to the residence of the person involved. That person advised the officer that he "planned" to take care of it. That was sufficient for the officer, and the department. When that plan failed to materialize I inquired again, and was advised they had done what they could do, and that I should revert to the court system.

I relate these experience just to point out that you will not always get satisfaction from the local police or sheriff. If you decide to sue in the local small claims court you will have to make the trip there to appear for the hearing, and you better have sufficient evidence to prove that the weapon actually belonged to you, and that it still belongs to you. (a writing or something to show that there was no transfer of ownership) I would suspect that any form of law enforcement, including the Federal government, would require the same. In these types of cases sufficient hard evidence is what rules the day.
18 May 2019, 22:58
Colin Masters
I own a restaurant, and have gotten to be friends with a local ATF guy. He was more than helpful with a rifle I could not get back from a gunsmith.
26 November 2019, 04:03
drm-hp
It is now 25 November, 2019.
I have had some life issues and to tell the truth I had forgotten about this issues. But I am back! To let you all know Charley has not sent an e-mail, called or otherwise tried to get ahold of me in any manner. Just thought I would give an update as to Charley Santini's character.
Doug
26 November 2019, 06:28
Alfredo C
quote:
Originally posted by drm-hp:
It is now 25 November, 2019.
I have had some life issues and to tell the truth I had forgotten about this issues. But I am back! To let you all know Charley has not sent an e-mail, called or otherwise tried to get ahold of me in any manner. Just thought I would give an update as to Charley Santini's character.
Doug


If I were you I would involve the Police, BATF, etc. and report the issue to them....as far as you know you sent "Charlie" 2 guns 2 years ago and by now you are now not sure of their whereabouts or if you have been scammed by him. I bet that they will knock on his door.

Two of your guns floating around California for all you know.

The time for being a gentleman are over
26 November 2019, 06:35
Alfredo C
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Not looking for debate...Just pointing out inconsistency


Duane, you seem to be defending this guy....why? I do understand that he is your friend but his conduct is TOTALLY inexcusable.

Everyone in the gun industry knows YOUR stellar reputation so if I were you I wouldn't want people to think that I was defending a guy like him.

My 2 cents anyway, take it or leave itWink
26 November 2019, 17:24
clowdis
drm-hp
Whining about it on the forum won't get anything done. Time to call the BATF and make something happen. We all hate to do these things but I never have treated a customer this way and never will, but if I did I'd expect a knock on the door.


"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".