took 5 seconds using google to find this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVv1So1n_8

That is really heavy duty!

It would be interesting to see a video of that program used to machine a custom rifle stock.

I wonder if they are good enough to do something like make an exact copy of a mauser action?

I have a laser scanner.....nothing fast about them. I shudder to think the hours required to scan an action and end up with usable files. It would be much faster drawing an action in CAD than it would be scanning one. They work great for really odd shapes but require tons of clean up and editing of the files. Involved and time consuming to say the least.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

For those of us who are not machinists - how does that work when you say that you digitize it?

Doesn't it take a considerable amount of time to write a program for both the inside and the outside of each individual stock that you make for each different type of barreled action that you are going to stock?

I'll post a video with times for digitizing & machining the Mini Howa stock. Not gonna happen today though. Probably chop up the full length video to a few minutes and also upload the full length for those that have the time to watch paint dry. Not gonna happen next week either.

I would always a prefer a M70 or Rem 700 (or their custom action copies) and main reason is the bedding configuration and especially where you want the barrel free floating all the way. Big recoil lug. Mark V Wby has the big recoil lug but front screw goes into recoil lug instead of the centre of the bedding platform. Also, with Mark V front screw into big deep recoil lug means the amount of stock material between the floor plate and bottom of lug is very small.

Actually I think with Howa and custom guns and especially wood gun I think a lot of shooters would not want to do their project on what is seen as an el cheapo action.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I would always a prefer a M70 or Rem 700 (or their custom action copies) and main reason is the bedding configuration and especially where you want the barrel free floating all the way. Big recoil lug. Mark V Wby has the big recoil lug but front screw goes into recoil lug instead of the centre of the bedding platform. Also, with Mark V front screw into big deep recoil lug means the amount of stock material between the floor plate and bottom of lug is very small.

Actually I think with Howa and custom guns and especially wood gun I think a lot of shooters would not want to do their project on what is seen as an el cheapo action.

Big recoil lug? Why?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I would always a prefer a M70 or Rem 700 (or their custom action copies) and main reason is the bedding configuration and especially where you want the barrel free floating all the way. Big recoil lug. Mark V Wby has the big recoil lug but front screw goes into recoil lug instead of the centre of the bedding platform. Also, with Mark V front screw into big deep recoil lug means the amount of stock material between the floor plate and bottom of lug is very small.

Actually I think with Howa and custom guns and especially wood gun I think a lot of shooters would not want to do their project on what is seen as an el cheapo action.

Big recoil lug? Why?

Much bigger areas. THey don't set back. Rem 700 style has the most stock material behind the recoil lug.

Original Mausers and early Sakos, they have the recoil lug resting on the cross bolt because the cross bolt apart from being there to stop the stock splitting as it "balloons out" with recoil, also effectively increases the area of the action recoil lug.

Blokes like D'Arcy Echols and David Miller don't use the M70 action without reason.

quote:

Actually I think with Howa and custom guns and especially wood gun I think a lot of shooters would not want to do their project on what is seen as an el cheapo action.

Apparently you haven't worked on a Howa and a Sako side by side. Understandably Howa's are priced to sell. The bolt and action are top quality. After dry firing my mini Howa project several thousand times I even like the 2 stage trigger. The custom trigger shoe you see in my pics above is just a drop in that looks great. The factory trigger shoe, not so much.

Now, how many mini actions are readily available as of now?

M70 nope
Rem700 nope
etc.. nope

The Howa is machined very well. Much better than any WinM70 I ever worked on.

Just never had a bent recoil lug or bedding problem with a Remington. For that matter no problems with a Mod17 in 415 Rigby or a VZ24 in 458 Lott. Trying to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Actually I think with Howa and custom guns and especially wood gun I think a lot of shooters would not want to do their project on what is seen as an el cheapo action.

Apparently you haven't worked on a Howa and a Sako side by side. Understandably Howa's are priced to sell. The bolt and action are top quality. After dry firing my mini Howa project several thousand times I even like the 2 stage trigger. The custom trigger shoe you see in my pics above is just a drop in that looks great. The factory trigger shoe, not so much.

Now, how many mini actions are readily available as of now?

M70 nope
Rem700 nope
etc.. nope

The Howa is machined very well. Much better than any WinM70 I ever worked on.

I am very familiar with both Howa and the original Sakos. However, that does not change the perception that the Howa is cheap. In fact personally I prefer the Howa action because I hate the dovetail mounts on Sakos.

In Australia (and maybe America is similar??) top end wood guns would be nearly all M98 and M70 based and lots of the M7o being pre 64s. In most cases in Australia it is a "pay as you go" deal and that is where M98 is popular as project can be started cheaper and especially if compared to Pre 64 action.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Just never had a bent recoil lug or bedding problem with a Remington. For that matter no problems with a Mod17 in 415 Rigby or a VZ24 in 458 Lott. Trying to learn.

I said Rem 700 was tops. Best recoil lug setup in the business and especially with more stock material behind the recoil lug.

You will find 99% (I am leaving room for an exception ) of accuracy based rifles have the front screw in the centre of the bedding platform and a decent size tang to bed. Tangs like Rem 700 and Mark V Wby are excellent as they sit on top of the stock. An 70 does the same but it had a small square section (to lengthen the thread) and for correct bedding you need to fuck around getting some tape around the back of that square section so it is clear.

Of course all of these things and their importance will and does depend on what you are trying to achieve. If the rifle is shot a lot with repeated testing of a bench and paper then that will show accuracy differences.

One of the pluses of the Rem 700 (and its custom copies) is the trigger can be removed without taking the rifle apart. Now this sis something that only an extremely small percentage of shooters will value. In this case it is where instead of standard bedding the action is glued to the stock and usually referred to as a "glue in"

Unless you are taking things to extremes then probably the best action is the action you like the most.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
The Howa is machined very well. Much better than any WinM70 I ever worked on.

I agree. They are priced well too. They make nice project guns where you don't have to re-machine everything or start with a $1300 "clone" receiver.

The barrels on the howa mini's I've worked on were not hard to remove. I've read that the full size 1500 barrels are difficult though.

Great rifles; have two - a Howa branded one in 243 Winchester stocked in a Hogue overmoulded full aluminum bedding with an adjustable buttplate. The other is a Weatherby Vanguard in 7-08mm Rem in an Accurate Innovations stock. Great rifles.

I;ll take a Win. pre 64 or a Mauser, damned if I want a custom rifle on a Howa action..nor do I care for push feeds, guess that's what makes a horse race.

Ray

Have you ever taken a Howa actioned rifle out on a hunting trip?

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Ray

Have you ever taken a Howa actioned rifle out on a hunting trip?

I think you are leaving out of the equation what someone wants.

Like Ray, if I was getting a top custom wood gun made the Howa would not even be a consideration or a Ruger and for a wood gun Rem 700 would be off the list.

Although my preference is to Push Feed, if I was getting a top wood gun in 300 H&H or 375 H&H I would want a CRF action. However, if it was a top wood gun in 30/378 or the 378 I would want a Mark V.

A top gun and especially a top wood gun is all about want and not need.

Not wanting a Howa as the action has nothing to do with how good or bad the action is.

I understand that sentiment with the exception of the mini action. It really is the best choice in that size/package IMO. I have the CZ 527’s and the Howa is the better action....I’ll add IMO to refrain from a match

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
I understand that sentiment with the exception of the mini action. It really is the best choice in that size/package IMO. I have the CZ 527’s and the Howa is the better action....I’ll add IMO to refrain from a match

What about the old Sako Vixen and Forrester. Not sure if they were called that in America but the Vixen is the 222 family and the Forrester the 22/250, 243 and 308.

Not exactly widely available and very few in ppc to be found. The Howa mini is a great little action.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
The Howa mini is a great little action.

Yes it is!
It's one thing to parrot talking points about blah blaha blahaaaa, and another thing to actually have experience working on it.

I have worked on it and have a positive review of it.

How many Naysayers have worked on it ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
Not exactly widely available and very few in ppc to be found. The Howa mini is a great little action.

There are a lot of the old Sako Vixens in 222 in Australia. The Forrester in 243 and 308 not so many. Also quite a few of the old Finnbears in 270 and 375.

I have seen in Australia a scaled down big bore express rifle on the Sako Vixen. In fact I think there was a similar one posted on this forum some time ago.

And again, Ray and myself are not saying the Howa is shit, we are just saying we would have zero interest in a custom gun, especially a wood gun on any Howa action.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

And again, Ray and myself are not saying the Howa is shit, we are just saying we would have zero interest in a custom gun, especially a wood gun on any Howa action.

We can read and understand. Ray said he didn't want to use a Howa action for a custom Rifle.
Fine. I think (hope) we all got that.

But that is not what I asked Ray. What I asked Ray is whether he had ever hunted with a rifle that had a Howa action on it. I didn't ask Ray whether he had an interest in using a Howa action on a custom Rifle because he had already answered that question.

The answer to my question is very simple. Its either yes or no.

Well in my case I have used them.

In fact a Howa heavy barrel in 308 I owned and 52 grains 748 and 130 grain Speer Hollow Point, rifle bedded, is the most accurate rifle I have ever used with a factory barrel. They are very common in Australia and in fact at one stage they were called CMC for Commercial Marketing Company and that was on the action. When they were here we called them CMCs.

The number of the big red kangaroos I have shot with a Howa would be numbers like Americans shoot prairie dogs. I have used Howas (nearly always 308s) to shoot roos we would chase in those early Suzuki soft tops and with windscreen down and also out of WWII Jeeps and tons of spotlight shooting with Howa. They have always fed well and under rough conditions and they don't have those dumb tapered dovetails of the Sako.

Rugers are usually cheap in Australia but I would prefer a Howa and one reason is it is push feed. CRF is not good with fucked up case rims, protruding primers (sometimes in the bush the ammo is loaded a bit rough ) For rough shooting the are tops because they work and being cheap it does not matter if you knock them around.

So yes, I have been shooting with Howas.

They have a very good reputation in Ausralia and that says a lot because of the volume of shooting done.

Based on the one Howa I barreled to 6.5 creedmoor several years back, the Howa is very square and concentric action. I put an 8 twist Brux on that one, it shot right at 1/2 moa, 5 inch groups at a 1000yds.

I didn't true or lap a damn thing.....it didn't need it. Other than this one build I've not worked with more Howa actions, but I damn sure wouldn't count one out because of its name or price. If the rest are as good as the one I used, good to go, build to your hearts or checkbooks content.

It always surprised me that Sako's were so popular. Other than displaying very indifferent machining / concentricity / tolerances, I've seen many surprising casting flaws that I thought should have been rejected at the factory, but which were not. Sako have also kept up long production of the same flaws in various models, with little or no attention paid to rectifying them.

As for Rem 700's......I think they are popular because an aftermarket industry of "pimping them out" with bolt-on goodies or gunsmithed upgrades, to make them better. The receiver is as stiff as a limp noodle, and I detest that sandwiched recoil lug. No matter what folk say, both are cheap - manufacturing shortcuts intended to save money. Machining tolerances...pretty bloody average on most of them. They've been done to death and beyond, and a sure thing for folk who copy rather than cut their own track. Sure, a finely accurate, consistent rifle can be built on them, after a lot of work.

Howa didn't take such shortcuts, they deliver consistent quality and they do it so cheap it's baffling. Yet they are well made and consistent actions. Good barrels, too. If they'd taken the trouble to make steel bottom metal, and doubled or tripled the price with appropriate marketing - they'd have been coveted by demi-snobs.

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Based on the one Howa I barreled to 6.5 creedmoor several years back, the Howa is very square and concentric action. I put an 8 twist Brux on that one, it shot right at 1/2 moa, 5 inch groups at a 1000yds.

I didn't true or lap a damn thing.....it didn't need it. Other than this one build I've not worked with more Howa actions, but I damn sure wouldn't count one out because of its name or price. If the rest are as good as the one I used, good to go, build to your hearts or checkbooks content.

Lots of them used in Australia to make long range varmint style guns and also some classes of target shooting, although never bench rest.

However, I think you will find both in America and Australia a high end custom wood gun on a Howa would be like hen's teeth. That area is almost dominated by Mauser and M70. Weatherby, Blaser and Sauer cover the factory stuff as you can spend to your heart's content

quote:

Originally posted by Juglansregia:

As for Rem 700's......I think they are popular because an aftermarket industry of "pimping them out" with bolt-on goodies or gunsmithed upgrades, to make them better. The receiver is as stiff as a limp noodle, and I detest that sandwiched recoil lug. No matter what folk say, both are cheap - manufacturing shortcuts intended to save money. Machining tolerances...pretty bloody average on most of them. They've been done to death and beyond, and a sure thing for folk who copy rather than cut their own track. Sure, a finely accurate, consistent rifle can be built on them, after a lot of work.

Rem 700 and its custom copies have a couple of pluses. While not applicable to 99.9% of shooters, a large percentage of those 99.9% are influence in what they buy based on what the keen guys use.

The round action is a big plus for "glue ins" and in the area of getting them apart. Also and related to "glue ins" is being able to remove the trigger without pulling the rifle apart.

Like you I hate the recoil lug. However, it does mean more stock material behind the recoil lug. Just the look of the extractor causes my blood pressure to rise Having said all that the simple facts are a Rem 700 or its copies is the easiest road to a super accurate rifle. Jewell trigger and every scope in the world will is made for them and every fibreglass stock is made for them and gunsmiths are geared up for Rem 700 actions. I once heard it said the Rem 700 is the small block Chev of actions.

I have never been a fan of the push feed system. I built one rifle using this action (+ yes it is a Sako copy), but only one. It was mfg. in Japan + I felt that it's greatest claim to sales is that it hit the market about the same time that the "unpleasantness in the Balkans" started + Interarms could no longer export actions. I understand that now Charles Daly has resurrected that niche. Still, I can find no comparison to a MK X (98) action VS a Howa. Only my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by NormanConquest:
Still, I can find no comparison to a MK X (98) action VS a Howa. Only my opinion.

The quality of machine work on the Howa action is far and above what comes out of Yugoslavia. As a custom builder that means something.

Just like the quality of machine work on an Oberndorf 98 action is far and above what came out of an FN plant.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
we are just saying we would have zero interest in a custom gun, especially a wood gun on any Howa action.

you mean like this?













[/QUOTE]

I couldn't care if had the greatest piece of wood in the World and was made by D'Arcy Echols, if it was on a Howa I would not want it. That simple.

Pretty nice work Vapodog! Have ypu had it to the range? If so, how did it shoot for you?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I couldn't care if had the greatest piece of wood in the World and was made by D'Arcy Echols, if it was on a Howa I would not want it. That simple.

I can assure you that Mr. Echols would have done a far better job of it had it been his hand that did the work. We all have our likes and dislikes as do I so I hope you don't mind if I build several more on other calibers as I now find them worthy of my gun cabinet......right next to my VZ-24 rifles and my M-70s

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Pretty nice work Vapodog! Have ypu had it to the range? If so, how did it shoot for you?

Yes and the results are a trifle disappointing. The gun shot incredibly good groups with it's original (I think it's Hogue) stock but after all this work, the best I can get is near the 1.25" groups.

It is somewhat hampered with the requirement of monolithic bullets and at this point there's not a lot available compared to other styles of bullets. That said, it's still good enough for the hunting I do.

I had a customer that wanted a rifle for a local factory class competition of some sort. Longer ranges (5-600?), and a 10lb weight limit. Had to be factory barrel and action. I bought him a Howa barreled action 24” 6.5 Creedmoor heavy barrel. I HEAVILY fluted that barre and bedded it in a b&c stock along with adjusting the trigger. That rifle shoots sub 1/2 MOA and better and he’s constantly amazed by it. He does quite well in FClass competitions with full up custom rifles and he’s sold on Howa rifles for a general use rifle that shoot as well as many customs.. I’m fairly impressed with them too.

Still, it wouldn’t be my first choice for a all out custom rifle with fine Walnut and blued steel...except for that Mini action...I’m going to build a fine little custom on one of those as soon as James turns out some of those after market parts.

I understand Mike's lack of interest in a full custom build on a Howa. I would rather have a CRF M98 clone mini in 223 size, but they are not something you can find. I know I've seen one made in Germany, but nothing available in the US market. The availability of the mini Howa and the quality of it's machine work makes it the perfect platform for those who want to build a graceful slim & trim rifle for pennies on the dollar in comparison to a full blown Mauser custom. I'm looking to offer more of a custom/production level of parts&service for these more on the lines of Dakota.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I couldn't care if had the greatest piece of wood in the World and was made by D'Arcy Echols, if it was on a Howa I would not want it. That simple.

I can assure you that Mr. Echols would have done a far better job of it had it been his hand that did the work. We all have our likes and dislikes as do I so I hope you don't mind if I build several more on other calibers as I now find them worthy of my gun cabinet......right next to my VZ-24 rifles and my M-70s

If I win the lottery I will buy you a truck load of Howa rifles. Even two truck loads

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
I couldn't care if had the greatest piece of wood in the World and was made by D'Arcy Echols, if it was on a Howa I would not want it. That simple.

I can assure you that Mr. Echols would have done a far better job of it had it been his hand that did the work. We all have our likes and dislikes as do I so I hope you don't mind if I build several more on other calibers as I now find them worthy of my gun cabinet......right next to my VZ-24 rifles and my M-70s

If I win the lottery I will buy you a truck load of Howa rifles. Even two truck loads

Here's hoping you win the lottery soon.....

quote:

One would think that a company that knows quality and builds quality would take advice from its customers to offer a controlled feed action for the US market.

As a generality that is true.....however one should not assume the folks that post here and on other firearms forums are the "customer"....in fact, I believe we represent a very small percentage of firearms buyers. Further, I suspect that controlled round feed isn't a term used by the majority of firearm buyers.....they have no clue what it means and don't really want to know.

There is a time and place for everything.....and when it comes to CRF.....it's not something desirable on a varmint rifle.....and as a matter of fact, if someone came out with a copy of the Sako L-461 in 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, .222 Rem, .223 Rem, 17 fireball and that group of cartridges, it would sell quite well.

Well, James, we all have our own opinions + that's good; it gives diversity in the customs being built. I still adhere to the theory that the 98 action design is the best out there, but that's just me. I suppose that's why they make Ford's + Chevy's under the same premise.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

however one should not assume the folks that post here and on other firearms forums are the "customer"....in fact, I believe we represent a very small percentage of firearms buyers.

Dead right. There is a poll on deer carrtidges on Medium bores or wherever at the moment ad it has the 257 Roberts as twice as popular as the 243.

AR shares with Australia's biggest guns/hunting forum of giving the impression there is a 9.3 X 62, 375 H&H and 404 Jeffery behind every second bush.