Ryan, I agree with your first paragraph. The demand for high end custom firearms has decreased and continues to do so, maybe that end of the trade is "on terminal life support". ...During the 50's,60's,and 70's the demand for quality custom guns grew but that demand was split between perhaps a dozen or so quality makers. Most of who inletted and shaped from square blanks. Hobbyists of that period had to use Bishop or Fajen semi-inlets which were crudely turned and left hugh amounts of extra wood both inside and outside. You realy had to work hard to get a decent quality stock from them. ... However with the advent and widespread availability of the pantographs in the early 80's, now everybody could be a decent stockmaker as long as they took their time. Stocks were mainly clones of Jerry Fisher or Dale Goens type stocks with an occasional California roccoco style stock thrown in. Now instead of just a few stockmakers there were hundreds and the demand for metalsmiths increased accordingly. ...Those were pretty good times with work for all. The better makers "floated to the top" and those of lesser quality simply charged what they could although many were hurt by their direct competition with firms such as Dakota and Kimber. Those that could survived, but many left the trade. ....During the 90's the number of new clients decreased dramaticaly and with the uncertain economy and recession of the 2000's the number of new clients has almost dried up. Tough times for high end custom gunmakers and those that have work put in 60-70 hour weeks--because that is what it takes to do quality--and yes they barely make wages. Those that remain do so only for the love of the craft. ...Would I recommend the trade to a young man? Most certainly not. As Duane points out, an electrician makes a better living. ....As for the comment that "the ACGG should provide the formal gateway to a rigorous apprentiship" I think that you are confusing the use of the word guild in the name ACGG with the European type guild system. Although a few hoped for this at the beginning it simply never came to pass. ....AS for the Colonial Williamsburg apprenticeship program it was designed to provide a historically accurate reenactment of gunmaking, not to train new gunmakers. Those men are paid as reenactors not gunsmiths. ...David Wesbrook

Any drop in demand for custom guns in America is due more to a change in American consumers' attitudes than anything.

How many folks have a safe full of guns without a single true custom?


Quantity over quality these days.

Duckear, That may be true for the average America consumer whose household income is $55,000 a year, (I think that is the correct figure), who can budget a new factory gun every year or two. ... However, custom guns have always been the realm of those with considerable disposeable income that buy because they want not because they need . ...Hell, I own and hunt with both. My ratio is probably 3-4 factory to every custom. ...Dave

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I dont know the story about how electricians are doing in the states but over here construction related entrepreneurs were getting away with murder lately.When two fellows enter your premises and work for an hour and charge 1000 dollars for a simple job with no parts supplied-what can I say?In no other industry have I seen a guy start with nothing but a tool box and several years later own a fleet of vehicles and embark on fishing and hunting trips all over the continent.

As an industrial electrican by trade, I can tell you at least here in the motor city where 90% of work in auto related, we aren't doing much better than Duane. Now 10 years ago was a different story. But maybe that's why I'm not allowed in your country anymore. Your government doesn't like us coming up there to work and I was only charging $75 an hour.
Don

One of the problems for manny customgunmakers today, can be lack of basic rutine.
In the old days gunsmiths was trapped as Young childs, and had to start making the same thing over and over Again, until near to perfection. That resulted in a werry uniform quality, and a high productivity.
Today manny custombuilders acts like artists. Trying to only making "masterpices".
I have not that artistian talent, so i have had to learn the "slaveway" making hundreds or thousands of each. Then sudently there is not that mutch magig in making something closer to perfect.
Using a raw basic rutine, it becomes mutch more lukrative making high end products.

Manny of the artists hate me for telling Things, of how to do Things a Little different, and quite a bit more efficiant. Manny starts crying BS and equal, when confronted. I think it is a sort of selfdefence.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
it becomes mutch more lukrative making high end products.

The path to becoming a highly successsful high-end riflesmith,
[just like other industries with aspiring individuals ie; painters/sculptures,actors,dancers,singers]
is scattered with the remains of many of those that never quite made it.

Of the successful high end riflesmiths,
Some are capable pioneers and inventors, others simply latch onto an already proven aproach/design or formula
and get to doing it very well or better.

Firearm designer and maker,George Hoenig created his highly desired stock duplicator which is purchased by small top-tier workshops like Echols,Miller, etc
...as well as the Big name bespoke gun-makers across Europe.

Westley-Richards itself was instrumental with the early introduction of CNC technology in the top-tier part of the industry.

The difference to being 'very good' vs 'true excellence', comes down to more than how well you directly work your tools and equipment.
Curt Crum said it took him almost as long to learn how to sharpen his tools as to use them well,whereas other supposedly high ranked smiths
dont strive to the same degree, instead preferring to settle for 'close enough being good enough', yet somehow still consider themselves as a 'master'.

'Non-gimmick' high-grade proprietary scope mount designs like what Echols and Miller offer, are what help set them apart from the pack.
Same with Echols and his syn. Legend stock..... Yes its a moulded & 'cookie cut' thing, but it is based on geometry that was already being
repeatedly cookie-cut for walnut stocks.
The extent to which Echols and Miller work-over an action and heat treat, together with things like quality of bottom metal they provide,
also contributes to what goes into setting them apart from the pack.

Echols breaks with tradition by free-floating a barrel, and like the Miller shop, will install/epoxy bed an aluminium beam in the forend of their high priced
bespoke walnut stock rifles....Which is probably to the disdain of some traditionalists.

People like Otto Weiss did time at Purdeys and went onto opening his own shop to produce[and improve] established bespoke SxS and U/O firearm designs,
and to a standard that exceeds anything the BritishShops have produced. Doing so also attracted other rare talented individuals like Peter Nelson.

There are several reputable & successful CRF/M98 type action design manufacturers in Europe and they all seem to survive well producing much the same thing.
in contrast to the similar number of operators who have attempted the same in the US, most of which have gone by the wayside for one reason or another.

Another issue with at least some of the "artists" is that they actually don't add anything real new. But they deliver a werry well made "replica", produced with limited equipment, and a moderat production rutine, resulting in a pretty high quality, acheved by way to much labour.

If one would claime to be making something real "custom made" they ought to start out with what ever action the customer wants. Then add a barrel that the custommer select. The stock should not be "copyed", but inleted in a blank, then the outer geometry should be shaped according to the fysical structure of the customer. Not anything like standard mesurements available from a standard pattern laying around.
Now the artist can ad some beautifully lines and details to the stock.

This statement, is werry generalizing, and does not cover all "Custom gunsmiths" The statement, is not made to offend anyone, just trying to put in another perspectiv

You are contradicting yourself every other paragraph. In one instance you say custom smiths dont gain any real production efficienecy, then the next paragraph you say they should do things in a one-off way. Doing things one-off often takes more time, and sometimes parts have to be made and fitted more than once.

I think a custom smith should find his "signature" or style, then use whatever means necessary to produce it faster. The end result is what the customer is looking at, not how it was produced.

Aaron
i agre on your opinion about that they should find ther own signature, and use whatever to produce faster.

I dont se anny contradiction in my post.
First find a way to gain a raw rutine and tecknique in dooing certain jobs. When having gained that rutine, then you start making your own signature.
In my opinion, it is not finding your own signature, when you tryes to make "replicas" of old English rebuild mausers, using standard stockpaterns and other picked up parts from around.

What some actually does, is: spending lots of hours, trying to put together a lot of stuf, with a basic lack of raw rutine.
Manny makes werry nice stuf, but they spend way to much time, on making it, because of the lack of basic raw rutine.
Why not start stockmaking by producing several hundred of basically standardstocks, at a decent Price. Setting a realistic limit of time spend on each stock. That should take less than a year, and you should have basic rutine.
Same thing on a lot of the other types of jobs. In 5-10 years, you might be quite skilled and rutined.
Please never try to convince yourselv that this cant be done in that short a time. Keep an open mind, and look around for oportunities, instead of looking for limitations.

What a great discussion this has become. I was afraid it would go the way of many others. My congratulations to all! I am one of those who have a safe full of guns and not a single custom. I just don't think I know what I want! I see a gun and say: "Boy that looks really nice", and then I see another one, and say the same thing. I am sure they are different in significant ways. I honestly don't think that I could answer the question: "what do you want?"!!! Having said all that, my main concern is accuracy and I am not convinced that a custom gun is necessarily more accurate than an accurate gun from a factory that is noted for producing accurate guns. So, if true (and I am excluding benchrest guns here) this implies that one gets a custom gun for features other than accuracy, hence my lack of custom guns, I can't answer the first basic question ("what do you want?"!!!).
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
In my opinion, it is not finding your own signature, when you tryes to make "replicas" of old English rebuild mausers.

One can gain an equally great reputation for producing high quality authentic replicas,.. as much as for producing something more individual & unique.
Hartmann-Weiss produce a copy of the M98 magnum action, and include some authentic features that other manufacturers lazily exclude.
HartmannWeiss are 'unique' in the fact that they bothered to go to all that extra effort to include those orig. features.
However, to most people it probably would not matter.

Soroka produce a modern rendition of the Gibbs Farq. falling block,
and go to the effort of including several worthwhile changes/improvements to the orig. design.
ie; adopting the same positive approach that H&W have done with the British SxS and U/O designs.


Things that are prevalent in the custom gun industry; narrow-minded arrogance,Ego and hypocrisy.
...and lets not forget the fraudulent operators.

Dale Storey of Casper, Wyoming told me he didn't have any use for the guild.

I am not sure the depth of that statement.