I am using the term “mauser” here very loosely, but I am curious what the thoughts here are on how this class of actions compare. I am talking about the actions like the CZ 527, Zastava M85, Sako L461 compare. I have a build in my mind for a 300 blackout, so basically a 223 sized action. It can be hard to find much discussion of these actions as they compare after they’ve been refined by a quality smith.

I am particularly interested in how well they respond to tuning for reliable feeding, smoothness of the action, reliable extraction and how possible a nice trigger is to achieve. I am also curious about any particular difficulties with rebarreling of a given action.

Anyways, thinking about this build while sitting on a deer stand and thinking how handy such a little rifle could be if I were to go walking into the woods around me looking for a shot animal.

I'm not a smith so as a user I'll talk from that point of view

I have 2 Zastava's sold as Charles Daly. one is full custom in 7mm BR (stock, bottom metal, 3 pos,etc...) the other is just rebarreled to 6.5 G.

Both feed. Hart did the 6.5, the 7mm br was barreled by a guy in Florida long gone but redone.

The cz527 is in 223 , no work was done but to add the semi-flush factory bottom metal.I have a very early model (1994), the current models are much nicer

I had my hands on a Mannlicher Vixen in 222. Now that was special. Good luck getting parts.

I'd suggest looking at a mini Howa. There are a few companies making bottom metal and stocks for them. this a covered on the 6.5grendel forum.

I have barreled them; and have one here now for a 6mm BR barrel.
I, personally find zero use for something so small and short and would never own one; and only do them because people pay me in cash. I always recommend getting a real rifle and real caliber. 33 and above is best. To your question, the actins work fine; just too small for anything useful.
Maybe for shooting rabbits?

I certainly weigh and factor in all opinions, but I disagree with you on that one. Looking to build something around the 300 blackout and the 110 grain tac tsx bullet. That bullet does some devastating things to game. I have killed some larger hogs with it. Doesn’t matter where you touch them, they will anchor enough for a follow up shot.

Thinking about having a rifle built up with a shorter barrel and a suppressor. Wanting to keep overall length as short as possible.

Mini Mausers have metric threads, so set your lathe for that.

The CZ527 could be ok except for the horrible single stack magazine sticking out right where you carry it.
The Mark X, well they can be worked over for lots of $$$, it depends on the level you want to go to. James Anderson knows them back to front.
I’ve done some L461’s, bolt handles, 3 pos. safeties, custom Weibe B/M. The B/M is no longer available, the safeties were Lapour, not sure if still available. Myers Arms possibly. Nice scope mounts for tapered dovetails, that comes down to what you can live with.
https://forums.accuratereloadi...1019152/m/7591054162
Working on two round tops atm, H&R sold them years ago. Lots of freedom for scope mounting.
Perfect little actions for custom pest rifles.

I'm in LV, I'll post my Anderson Zastava next week

Cz made the 527 in 300 blackout suppressor ready. I would find one of those on the used market. I love all my 527s

Check out the Howa Mini. I've worked on several of them and the receivers are straight and well made. They're not hard to find and affordable.

Many years ago I wanted to build a .300 Whisper (one of the Blackout's predecessors).
A friend gave me a CZ527 action which had been in a fire, and the rest of the rifle had been destroyed.

I gave up the project for three reasons. Firstly I could not get a barrel with a suitable twist rate here, secondly the action came sans magazine and thirdly I was rather concerned about the effect of the fire on the heat treatment. All the springs had gone soft.

But what I can say is that I really liked that little action. It was extremely smooth.
I also think that despite the fact that a rifle with a mag sticking out the stock doesn't carry as nicely as one without, a single-stack magazine feeds better, so it's less likely to give you issues and if it does they will probably be a lot easier to fix.

But I am going to throw out another thought: if you really want to be silent, a little falling block single-shot is the way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
I am using the term “mauser” here very loosely, but I am curious what the thoughts here are on how this class of actions compare. I am talking about the actions like the CZ 527, Zastava M85, Sako L461 compare. I have a build in my mind for a 300 blackout, so basically a 223 sized action. It can be hard to find much discussion of these actions as they compare after they’ve been refined by a quality smith.

I am particularly interested in how well they respond to tuning for reliable feeding, smoothness of the action, reliable extraction and how possible a nice trigger is to achieve. I am also curious about any particular difficulties with rebarreling of a given action.

Anyways, thinking about this build while sitting on a deer stand and thinking how handy such a little rifle could be if I were to go walking into the woods around me looking for a shot animal.

I am doing a 222 at the moment on a Sako action. I do like the Sako actions very much. Just wish I could get a Lapour safety and Wiebe bottom metal.

I’m not really looking for silence, just wanting something short enough to be handy in trucks and in the woods. For example, yesterday morning while leaving the stand after making this post I ran into four 30 pound shoats. They came across the road and got hung up looking for a place to cross the fence. I jumped out of the truck with a model 70 in 6.5 swede. To do that I had to pull a 24” barreled rifle out and put on hearing protection. I got them killed, but it would have been faster with a shorter rifle with a suppressor on the end to not worry about putting on muffs.

They were only at about 30 yards. So the blackout has plenty of horsepower for that. It’s not hard to stalk up on game to within killing range of the blackout in my area. Lots of mixed pasture and woods that will let you move around.

What is more important to me a fast working action that feeds reliably and extracts and ejects well. This will often times be with dusty dirty rifle from riding around hot and dusty fields. I have found that for me a CRF style action with a Mauser style extractor works best. I have had Remington 700’s choke on extraction before. I know the mini-Mausers aren’t exactly true CRF. I think the extraction portion of that is more important than the feeding. I think the CZ is closed to Mauser. Not as certain how the zastava and sako fall in there.

quote:

Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
I’m not really looking for silence, just wanting something short enough to be handy in trucks and in the woods. For example, yesterday morning while leaving the stand after making this post I ran into four 30 pound shoats. They came across the road and got hung up looking for a place to cross the fence. I jumped out of the truck with a model 70 in 6.5 swede. To do that I had to pull a 24” barreled rifle out and put on hearing protection. I got them killed, but it would have been faster with a shorter rifle with a suppressor on the end to not worry about putting on muffs.

They were only at about 30 yards. So the blackout has plenty of horsepower for that. It’s not hard to stalk up on game to within killing range of the blackout in my area. Lots of mixed pasture and woods that will let you move around.

What is more important to me a fast working action that feeds reliably and extracts and ejects well. This will often times be with dusty dirty rifle from riding around hot and dusty fields. I have found that for me a CRF style action with a Mauser style extractor works best. I have had Remington 700’s choke on extraction before. I know the mini-Mausers aren’t exactly true CRF. I think the extraction portion of that is more important than the feeding. I think the CZ is closed to Mauser. Not as certain how the zastava and sako fall in there.

Have a look at the Freyr & Devik and Ase Utra silencers. Extremely compact and lightweight

Unfortunately, I don’t think those suppressors are available in the states. I would probably be going for a similar weight/length and performance profile. Most likely the Thunderbeast arms ultra 7 titanium can.

I like the L-series SAko actions best and the clip fed Riihimakis. I have an L-series 6x45 and a Riihimaki in my favorite caliber, a 222 Rem..

quote:

Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
I’m not really looking for silence, just wanting something short enough to be handy in trucks and in the woods. For example, yesterday morning while leaving the stand after making this post I ran into four 30 pound shoats. They came across the road and got hung up looking for a place to cross the fence. I jumped out of the truck with a model 70 in 6.5 swede. To do that I had to pull a 24” barreled rifle out and put on hearing protection. I got them killed, but it would have been faster with a shorter rifle with a suppressor on the end to not worry about putting on muffs.

They were only at about 30 yards. So the blackout has plenty of horsepower for that. It’s not hard to stalk up on game to within killing range of the blackout in my area. Lots of mixed pasture and woods that will let you move around.

What is more important to me a fast working action that feeds reliably and extracts and ejects well. This will often times be with dusty dirty rifle from riding around hot and dusty fields. I have found that for me a CRF style action with a Mauser style extractor works best. I have had Remington 700’s choke on extraction before. I know the mini-Mausers aren’t exactly true CRF. I think the extraction portion of that is more important than the feeding. I think the CZ is closed to Mauser. Not as certain how the zastava and sako fall in there.

So you’re not looking to build a custom rifle, you just want a truck gun I guess.

I don’t think a “custom rifle” and a “truck gun” are mutually exclusive. I have a specific goal for what I want as a “truck gun” that I will likely need to have built to accomplish. The 6.5 swede I was carrying in the example story was Winchester classic action built out with a shilen barrel and McMillan stock.

It absolutely doesn’t bother me to carry an expensive rifle and use it hard if that’s what it’s built to do.

Yeah that’s fair enough.

Not the puny 6 BR, DPCD. A real gun, a 6.5 BR!!

quote:

I’m not really looking for silence, just wanting something short enough to be handy in trucks and in the woods

Take a look at a Winchester Model 70 .223 WSSM.

Mine is short and handy and already has all of the control feed and 3 position safety that your looking for in a very short action Rifle.

I’m not real familiar with the WSSM family, but first thing that comes to mind for me that would be an issue is only holding three down in the mag. I always want at least 4 down in the mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
What is more important to me a fast working action that feeds reliably and extracts and ejects well. This will often times be with dusty dirty rifle from riding around hot and dusty fields. I have found that for me a CRF style action with a Mauser style extractor works best. I have had Remington 700’s choke on extraction before. I know the mini-Mausers aren’t exactly true CRF. I think the extraction portion of that is more important than the feeding. I think the CZ is closed to Mauser. Not as certain how the zastava and sako fall in there.

Well then, a falling block is out of the question even though it's typically at least 2.5" shorter in this caliber range than a bolt action.

I am not sure I understand the issues you have had with the 700. If the extractor slipped over the rim of the case, well, then the problem is clearly with the extractor. But probably not due to CRF or quasi-CRF. If it tore through the rim of the case, then I guess a bigger extractor wouldn't but I still think the real problem is elsewhere.

If you couldn't get the action open, then the issue has nothing to do with the extractor. It could be a whole bunch of things, from extractor cam angle (the angle at the back of the receiver) or finish or "timing" to a rough chamber or maybe even dirt in the wrong place.

In short, I have nothing against the type of action you want to use. But mis-identifying a problem leads to not getting it fixed.

However, I am going to obfuscate matters even further. For the situation you described earlier in the post, I would have wanted some sort of lever-action repeating carbine fitted with a button mag, a reflex silencer and possibly a red-dot optic. Perhaps in .357 but actually shooting a .38 Special, but caliber is not very important in this situation.

Well, probably the “best” option would be a short barreled AR-15 in 300 blackout. I was using a 9” with suppressor on it and a trijicon 1-4 for a while. It worked really well but got to be too easy. The bolt actions are fun for the challenge. I occasionally will use lever rifle as well. Have a browning 71 in 348, have used model 94’s in 30-30. Have actually been continually disappointed by 45-70’s. The marlins in 45-70 just haven’t done great for me.

There are certainly better form factors than this short bolt rifle. I just always come back to enjoying bolt rifles the most. They definitely let you keep brass easier.

As far as the issues with Remingtons, it is honestly hard for me to remember the exact issues well enough now to accurately diagnose them. I have gotten more knowledgeable about rifle function since that time. Last time I carried Remington 700 bolt rifles doing my walk and stalks was probably 15 years ago now. Basically though, I used to hunt with a Remington 700 LVSF in 7-08 all the time. Killed untold numbers of hogs with it. Loved the rifle with that flat forend on the stock. Made it great for sticking out the window or laying on top of a t-post to shoot. It stayed with me all the time on the ranch as a high school kid. It would get filthy from dirt and dust while out. When it was clean, functioned great. When it got dirty, would have issues with cases not wanting to fully eject or not wanting to feed. Occasionally a fired case would still be in the chamber when working it hard on groups of pigs. Will admit, could have been some user error from short stroking the bolt. Regardless of the cause, I don’t have issues since switching to Mausers and Winchesters.

I will say, it is nerve wracking crawling up in thickets or in tall grass with multiple hogs moving around you and wounded ones coming to you and having to clear a malfunction on a bolt gun. Can stress in those situations cause me to fail in my manipulation of the gun and my failure lead to a problem? I’ll admit yes for sure. I can say for certain. I had it happen with Remingtons, I have never had it happen with a Winchester or Mauser.

Curious, what has disappointed you with Marlin 45-70's?
I shot a pile of deer, bear, warthogs to eland all with 350 hornady at 2100 fps. Never a problem.

As have I, and two bears in Canada too; mostly with 1973 early Marlins. Never had a problem.
Where do you live in order to have pigs all round you, crawling with them. And why are there wounded ones? Here, you shoot at one hog and kill it, before you think about another one. I must be missing something about the concept of hunting.

The 45-70 works, it just didn’t kill as quickly for me as other rounds. I will admit I didn’t spend much time experimenting with different bullets. I believe the little bit I used the 45-70 was mainly Remington loads. It mostly came down to the rifles not feeling as right in my hands as others.

I’m not sure I understand the question about where I hunt that I see hogs like I do or why it’s being questioned that there may be animals around in different stages of dying. Also not sure if it was asked seriously or not, but I will try to answer it seriously.

I hunt in Texas. I typically like to pick up a rifle and take off walking. Usually I will walk several miles over the course of an evening. Our ranch is roughly 50% wooded and 50% pasture with the woods being a mixture pine, hardwood bottom and brushy hillsides. When I’m walking, I will encounter sounders of pigs. I will stalk up on them. Usually to within 50 yards or so. Sometimes closer depending on conditions. I will set up on them and start shooting. First pig usually drops. The rest will be running. When hogs are running, I’m not as good a shot as some here must be. Some of them will take a bullet and keep going. I then like to track them into the woods and go for more. While following a sounder I have started shooting, I may encounter hogs that have been shot. Shot hogs typically like to go into brush that a man can’t walk into. To get a shot, it is necessary to crouch or crawl through brush. That is how I encounter pigs where they may not be directly in front of me out of the window of a blind. Sometimes they may be in that bush besides me. Some don’t like to wait patiently to be shot again and may choose to come to you.

Hopefully that description serves to help explain what I am talking about. Feel free to ask more questions if the description is still lacking.

Sounds like you would want a semi-auto for that kind of thing. I think I read about a new-ish version of the AR that fits a 308 in a 223 size package. I can't remember the details, but the article was talking about how it was one of the first factory offerings to accomplish this.

You want something sexy, takes AR tops and rem 1100 buttstock? Find a Fightlite Ares SCR.

They are cool.

The OP is describing the reason why I often carry an AR in 458 socom. I recall times in creek bottoms surrounded by hogs in swichcane so thick you couldn't see more than a foot or two in any direction. You could hear the hogs grunting and rooting, hell you could smell 'em. But you couldn't see anything until you got almost nose to nose with the critters. Knowing I had ten rounds of 300 grain, 45 caliber Barnes ttsx in the mag was very comforting.

For the record, in Texas, hogs are not considered to be game animals by TPWD. They can be hunted in any manner, anytime of the day or night, any time of the year.

A semi auto is for sure going to be the most efficient, but I like playing with bolt guns just because of the added skill required. Kind of a purposeful handicap just because it makes the game more fun for me. This is about optimizing a form factor for complementary purposes to rifles I have already.

Many options will work. According to your specs, a CZ 527 is a no brainer. A minature Mauser. All machined steel, no plastic or mim parts. Very accurate and phenomenal trigger. They are outstanding out of the box in accuracy and function. I have three. Find one used in .300 black out as has been eluded earlier and go hunt. The Zastava 85 and Sako are push feed. A Ruger American is an accurate and functional rifle. But it is a yugo in comparison to the 527.

Is there any way to do away with the detachable magazine on a 527 and go to an internal magazine?

cz makes a somewhat flush (3 rnd) magazine/triggerguard

quote:

Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
Is there any way to do away with the detachable magazine on a 527 and go to an internal magazine?

I think it would need to be single-stack, which would really limit the capacity.