While British smiths historically set the proverbial "standard" for best guns, there are some great German smiths that seem to receive less notoriety than their British counterparts.

What is the hive mind's view on current German bespoke bolt rifles and doubles? There seem to be a few stylistic differences in stock shaping, for example...

The problem Ive seen is the Germans tend to over engineer everything, but the do make some really nice guns, but like you said the Brits set the standard by which all are judged and I prefer the English style..Im sure the Custom Gun Guild boys will challenge that with the so called American classic, and they do have a point..but that's a subject based on preference..

Certainly no fleas on Hartmann & Weiss.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Certainly no fleas on Hartmann & Weiss.

Fully agree...if it wasn't quite so $$$.

I found it interesting that the prices for most custom rifles from German smiths are pretty competitive, compared to some US smiths and English shops. Anecdotal, but interesting.

We truly live in an era of talented gunsmiths.

There are many lesser or unknown German smiths that are very talented. What I find very cost effective is the cost of custom gunstocks...much less than domestic shops.

Well,John Taylor wrote how the brits were the best + the Germans a red headed step child;but then he would.The British firms DO indeed make high quality however the Germans are right up there as well. Until I gave it to my brother in law,I had a custom 06 guild rifle built in Wuzrburg w/ all the bells + whistles,DST,bbl band,superior checkering on wood + metal,D+T but also fitted w/ express sights,schnabel forend,ad nauseum.One quality piece of work.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a British custom rifle, however I have seen dozens of German custom rifles every year at gun shows across the USA.

Refined is a word not easily translated into german.

Schnabel forend vs. splinter. Which stirs the soul more?

I'm Irish and the only way I'm voting in terms of guns is English.

six of one and two threes. Both British and German gunsmiths produce top quality work, and historically not a lot to choose between a top London, Scottish, Birmingham, Northern Italy, Spain, French, North American, Suhl or Ferlach gunsmith.

Germans with their drillings etc possibly a bit more mechanically ingenious, and that ingenuity continues to this day.

Styling may be quite different and not to everybodies' tastes but thats a personal matter. I have a Ferlach built combination that is every bit as well built as my Alex Martin sidelock, and it is more styled more on the British styling.

Do I like hogs back, square cheek peace with fish scale checkering - no, but can appreciate the workmanship. Do I like Gold inlaid work from Westley Richards, Purdey or Holland & Holland - again no, but the workmanship is still there.

A lot is driven by the customers - the British had lots of customers looking for fine shotguns for shooting driven birds and rifles for hunting big game in Africa and India. German and Austrians catered for hunters shooting driven boar and multiple different types of game from highseats - often under moonlight.

I will say, many of the combination guns from the German smiths are fascinating. Their integration of shot shell, large rifle, and small rifle...is amazing. Regulation alone is a herculean feat.

The detail that they seem to put into their work is fascinating. Shame, my German is a bit rusty. Haven't been to Germany, outside the airport, in about 10 years.

The Germans make magnificent Mauser actions.

Hmm,

A friend of mine is one of the best engravers in the world, she is far cheaper than anyone who fancies themselves a gunscratcher in the USA or the UK.

The majority of gunsmiths I have met in Germany are really good at putting a piece of material into a CNC machine and assembling whatever is left into a rifle.

The older ones can build things by hand, the younger ones are reliant on technology.

British gunsmiths can rarely do but one job. They are stockers, or barrel fitters, or actioners.

I think in North America there are people that built actions, people that are good stockers, people that are good barrel men, or fiberglass stock makers, finishers, or pick a trait.

People like Hagn, Martini, Satterlee who can build the entire works in the USA are rare. But after being a here a year, I am convinced they are rare everywhere. Ferlach probably has 95% of the people that can take a block of steel and a block of wood and build a gun in the world. Tops that is 100 people.

America has a lot of engineering types that designed better mouse trap 700/98 mauser clones. So does Europe.

Europe has a lot of people that come up with totally weird and interesting rifle designs for their own self-reflection. Something not seen as often in the USA.

I believe we have several in the old USofA that are as good or better than you have mentioned. You may do a little study. The old US0fA guys do the whole part also.

Butch how many people in North America take a block of steel, and a block of wood and a barrel or some barrels and build a good rifle?

The number than can build a single shot or double rifle is even lower. A lot of people are making 700/70/98 clones and are amazing metal smiths but not stock makers.

Just a note here, both Martin Hagn and Ralf Martini, are NOT in "the USA". They are in BC the western province of Canada. I have rifles from Ralf's shop and am from that region.

The man who makes the Hagn actions, is also in BC, I don't know him, but, friends of mine and some of the smiths I use here do.

J do not believe that any one nation has a superior group of gunmakers over all others and some Italian and Belgian guns are simply mindblowing.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Butch how many people in North America take a block of steel, and a block of wood and a barrel or some barrels and build a good rifle?

The number than can build a single shot or double rifle is even lower. A lot of people are making 700/70/98 clones and are amazing metal smiths but not stock makers.

BWW, even I have made a receiver. Remington clone, but why? Building a receiver is not the most difficult machining job.
SNAP is correct.

Good gunsmiths are found wherever there is a desire to build a good rifle.That said, it takes a lot of experience to build one.What may be a good rifle to some is not a good rifle to others.One high end custom rifle I own was way off with iron sights, another again off and has such a poor shooting barrel that it immediately needs to be rebarreled.

German vs British Gunsmiths?

You pay one in € and the other in £.

A friend of mine is no one that you will ever meet, you'll likely never hear of him or read about him.

Yet he walked into my shop yesterday with a 2/3 scale Haenel rifle built in 9mm. He machined every component completely from scratch, no blue prints, no CNC's, built a stock duplicator to duplicate a pattern stock, made the pattern stock, and will color case harden the action when he is finished with the detail work.

There are many out there capable of the work. Sometimes they do not want to be found, and have to be tracked down by word of mouth. Over the years I have found many amazing craftsman that are not on "the internet" or in any phone book.

Fal Grunt,
I had an elderly friend that was an engineer with Collins Radio before it was taken over by Rockwell. His name was Eddie Miller, nephew of Harry Miller. Harry was the father of the Meyer-Drake- Offenhauser engine and the Miller Indy cars. Eddie worked with Pachmeyer early on. He built 2- 5/8 scale Low Walls and chambered them in 22 rimfire magnum. Winchester roll stamped their name on the barrel. All made by hand with manual machines.
Below are two of Eddie's hand built cars.
Eddie's Flathead Pontiac powered Bonneville car at Pebble Beach

The next is the Studebaker powered car that Studebaker decided not to produce. He sold the design to Donald Healy.

A lot of craftsmen are out there that can make things without CNC.
I will say that CNC and wire EDM has really opened the door for neat projects.

Butch those are incredible to the degree that I really cannot fathom the level of workmanship that goes into them. I watched a fellow work on a english wheel once and only could think of him as some form of wizard.

Truly amazing.

After running CNC's for a living, working in my shop with all manual machines finally got to me and this year I purchased a VMC. It's an old dinosaur like all the rest of my machines, but it sure is nice to push that cycle start button and have a cup of coffee while the chips fly.

I still do most of my work that matters on my Moore and K&T, but for the occasional jobs that are more than one piece...

An uncle of mine was one of those gentleman. Tool and Die Maker by trade, craftsman/tinkerer by hobby. I have most of his hand tools, a few of his rifles that I cherish, and a lot of knowledge he passed on. He made a rifling machine and his own rifle barrels for blackpowder guns, he ground his own chamber reamers, made all sorts of tools and did a phenomenal job on wood stocks. He made lock, stock, and barrel. Did his own hardening, case color hardening, bluing (rust, and hot salt), stockmaking from a plank of wood he cut himself. Really amazing work and I truly miss our talks that always lasted several hours. You'll never hear his name mentioned but he was a craftsman that I could only hope to equal someday in the quality of his work.

quote:

Originally posted by matt salm:
An uncle of mine was one of those gentleman. Tool and Die Maker by trade, craftsman/tinkerer by hobby. I have most of his hand tools, a few of his rifles that I cherish, and a lot of knowledge he passed on. He made a rifling machine and his own rifle barrels for blackpowder guns, he ground his own chamber reamers, made all sorts of tools and did a phenomenal job on wood stocks. He made lock, stock, and barrel. Did his own hardening, case color hardening, bluing (rust, and hot salt), stockmaking from a plank of wood he cut himself. Really amazing work and I truly miss our talks that always lasted several hours. You'll never hear his name mentioned but he was a craftsman that I could only hope to equal someday in the quality of his work.

Matt, he is among a few that were and still are around.