quote:

Originally posted by Wolfram Malukker:
I was a bit rude in my reply, I will admit. Wasn't exactly called for-but it's been a very common assessment from MANY people, and after being called out as a "Kentucky hillbilly engineer" I just cammed over the press and snapped back.

Metallurgically, the receiver after heat treat will only be weaker in places where a crack or incomplete fusion is allowed to remain. If I hadn't had to weld up the demil cut in the receiver ring, I would probably be able to shorten the action cold enough to not need a re-heat treatment at all. But, in this case a demil cut and a crack eliminate that option.

Duane, which solution are you referring to? I've seen a few of your short Mausers and have a 1894 Brazilian set aside for a short Mauser one day. I can only aim high and be satisfied with what I get if I aim to build one as nice as one of yours.

Then why start off with ab action with such issues?

I've seen welds performed by a welding engineer, well versed in firearms that were x- rayed...Sill looks like a spaghetti bowl! Even this expert has two rules 1. Never weld on a receiver ring and 2. Never weld on a receiver ring.

Of course,,where that weld..maybe a small one takes place can bend rule 1 and 2.

Your project is simply irresponsible (In my opinion)

Yeah. Why a cut Mosey for extensive reworking.
Because he can? Dunno.

I think the O.P. is probably responsible enough to set a cutting torch to it & throw it in the recycling bin if it ends up with fissures in the metal post heat treat. As a (non-expert novice observer), I'd be surprised if the metal came up "clean". Too much stress on uneven thicknesses from all the welding?
Seems to be the case.

What do the pro's say?
No matter what, no big loss other than time.
As with all failures, there is usually something to be learned along the way.

"I didn't fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps." "Great success is built on failure, frustration, even catastrophe."
Thomas Edison

Since this has turned into a discussion about the wisdom of welding on a receiver ring and in light of Duane's Rules 1&2, I'd like to ask about a project concerning a genuine M98 Kurz action. The receiver ring was dovetailed for a claw mount base, the owner wants this to disappear, and the dovetail has been filled with a close fitting piece of 1018 steel. Only a small very small line is visible around the old dovetail. In this case, would a very shallow, cosmetic weld be appropriate in the Kurz receiver? The goal is to have a nice clean receiver ring that can be engraved.

quote:

Originally posted by RogersGunWorks:
Since this has turned into a discussion about the wisdom of welding on a receiver ring and in light of Duane's Rules 1&2, I'd like to ask about a project concerning a genuine M98 Kurz action. The receiver ring was dovetailed for a claw mount base, the owner wants this to disappear, and the dovetail has been filled with a close fitting piece of 1018 steel. Only a small very small line is visible around the old dovetail. In this case, would a very shallow, cosmetic weld be appropriate in the Kurz receiver? The goal is to have a nice clean receiver ring that can be engraved.

Like this old Kurz?

As far as I'm concerned, a properly executed and finished weld on a receiver ring that's going to be heat treated is just fine.

Or are we going to go torch cut all those military Mausers converted to double square bridges? Or the ones that have had scope holes welded closed? Guess they gotta go too. Yes, some of those DSB's are soldered...but many are not.

Easy Wolfy. Don't take it personally. It was not intended as demeaning. Just saying to destroy it IF it doesn't work out to be sound. I want you to succeed. Really. Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
Keep us posted.

Looks like Roger Ferrell chimed in. This is getting interesting.

I'm not too ruffled over the torch cut comment. I'll be the first to grab the acetylene if the receiver doesn't come up clean during inspection after heat treatment. I've held a rifle that had the front ring abducted by aliens when I was at the gun range looking to buy it. (1910 Mexican Mauser)

I have no desire to blow one up unintentionally, thus taking measures normally considered to be too expensive or costly in pursuit of a hobby.

I bet most of the outward pressure generated by that Bain & Davis .357/.44 will be handled by the .357 barrel alone, properly seated & head spaced, etc. Isn't the B&D pressure about half of the original chambering?

Keep us posted.

quote:

Originally posted by RogersGunWorks:
Since this has turned into a discussion about the wisdom of welding on a receiver ring and in light of Duane's Rules 1&2, I'd like to ask about a project concerning a genuine M98 Kurz action. The receiver ring was dovetailed for a claw mount base, the owner wants this to disappear, and the dovetail has been filled with a close fitting piece of 1018 steel. Only a small very small line is visible around the old dovetail. In this case, would a very shallow, cosmetic weld be appropriate in the Kurz receiver? The goal is to have a nice clean receiver ring that can be engraved.

The late Hubert Hecht was a 7th generation German trained gunsmith..pretty good creds! anyway, he advised me that those receivers, if needing proof because of work performed were not proofed and advised owner to destroy them...Well.. a lot of this could be taken with a grain of salt because according to Speed, the Mauser folks gave it a provisional approval. My bet is that a small ring large thread would be "iffy"

quote:

Originally posted by Wolfram Malukker:
As far as I'm concerned, a properly executed and finished weld on a receiver ring that's going to be heat treated is just fine.

Or are we going to go torch cut all those military Mausers converted to double square bridges? Or the ones that have had scope holes welded closed? Guess they gotta go too. Yes, some of those DSB's are soldered...but many are not.

I really don't know how the proof houses in Europe handle those welded sq, bridges, but I only did it once with a written "contract" that the receiver was unsafe to be used as part of a firearm .

Fair enough. My plan is 3 proof loads on a string, then back into the quality lab for ultrasonic inspection.

The .44 Magnum is SAMMI limited to 36,000PSI, while the original 7.62x54R is CIP specified at 56,000 PSI and some change-less than 57,000PSI every reference I have found.

Case heads are similarly sized, with the .44 Magnum slightly smaller. So bolt thrust will be similar if loaded to similar pressures.

Don;'t want to pursue this further, but bolt thrust is dependent on other factors besides case head size. You really want to proof thrust, oil the case!

quote:

Originally posted by RogersGunWorks:
Since this has turned into a discussion about the wisdom of welding on a receiver ring and in light of Duane's Rules 1&2, I'd like to ask about a project concerning a genuine M98 Kurz action. The receiver ring was dovetailed for a claw mount base, the owner wants this to disappear, and the dovetail has been filled with a close fitting piece of 1018 steel. Only a small very small line is visible around the old dovetail. In this case, would a very shallow, cosmetic weld be appropriate in the Kurz receiver? The goal is to have a nice clean receiver ring that can be engraved.

Roger, I would do everything possible to preserve the claw mount system that was originally fitted.
To weld up the front ring would ruin the integrity of it way more than the original wedge.
Also you will most likely see the welds after it is blued and you will never be happy with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Don;'t want to pursue this further, but bolt thrust is dependent on other factors besides case head size. You really want to proof thrust, oil the case!

Sure, that's true. And I may just go ahead and do that-if nothing else, it's a valid test of "did it kaboom?"

(I just finished a fluted-chamber Cetme type L rifle, the cases are floated on powder gases during firing and extraction)

Finished up both of the receivers mentioned in this thread. #1 turned out functional and fine, except that the OD of the receiver was wobbly while the bolt raceway was slick, smooth, and true. Turning the OD to true to action resulted in some disturbing visuals, so the .44 Magnum barrel was dismounted after proofing to 45,000PSI loads, with cases oiled with WD-40. The receiver was then ultrasonic checked, and no cracking or voids were found. So, sound, but wobbly and ugly. I think I can do better. When removing the barrel, no excessive force, thread damage, or barrel swelling was noted or measured.

#2 is better looking, but has a crack running along the lower part of the action, from the trigger group forward through the interrupter slot. It's not up into the action ring, but I feel like it will only be a matter of time before it spreads. The crack was found after heat-treating, but before the rest of the work was done.

At this point I'm out of receivers, so I'll not bother attempting to stock one of these until I can get the metalwork to come up to the level of fit I want.