I ordered a rifle from a semi-custom maker of what are generally considered to be fine, U.S. made Sharps single shots.

I ordered a semi-fancy stock.

A year later, the rifle arrived.

Here are some photos of two knots in the fore end of the stock.







Would you consider these knots to be defects or flaws in the fore end, which should have caused it to be rejected, or would you accept them as fine?

There is some nice figure in the buttstock, and the rifle otherwise appears well-made and is well-finished.

There is more to the story, but I am interested in your knowledgeable opinions.

Doesn't look to semi-fancy to me. Wonder what plain looks like. I wouldn't accept that.

Semi fancy ? I don't think so. Utility at best. I wouldn't be too happy. So who is this "semi-custom" maker ?

Must be C Sharps, they over grade.

I’ve had utility grade stocks that looked way better than that, and I consider knots to be a defect in a rifle stock.

That’s as plain as wood cones, then add the knots. I wouldn’t be happy, but who would want to wait another year. At a minimum, I would point it out to the maker.

What does the butt look like? The fore arm is plain, but certainly not flawed. Those tiny knots mean it is made from wood.
When they said semi fancy, that usually means 25% figure in the BUTT; not the forearm. Post a picture of the butt; you might have what you paid for.

Not fine....barely average....

I would look at that every time that I pulled the rifle out and would not be happy at all.

quote:

Originally posted by randyreloader:
Must be C Sharps . . .

Bingo!

Could you post pictures of the buttstock so we can see overall what they consider semi fancy? I’m really curious to see after that forend. I’ve wanted to get a Sharps, but the wood lottery I’ve seen has pushed me to only being willing to buy one 2nd hand that I can see what the wood looks like before I shell out the cash for it. You would sure think that a U.S. company building custom/semi-custom rifles would sure be able to get some decent freaking wood. Their grading is definitely far different than mine. I feel like I’ve seen more Shiloh’s than C. Sharps with good wood but it still seems like a luck of the draw on who walks over and grabs a blank off the shelf for your rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What does the butt look like? The fore arm is plain, but certainly not flawed. Those tiny knots mean it is made from wood.
When they said semi fancy, that usually means 25% figure in the BUTT; not the forearm. Post a picture of the butt; you might have what you paid for.

Depends on how you want to define it.

flawed: blemished, damaged or imperfect.

Looks pretty rough to me.
Would say they have a quality control problem in their stock shop.
Usually I like to get photos as the job progresses.
What did C Sharps have to say about that?
4WD

Agree with others that the fore-end wood looks pretty plain but you seem happy with the rest of the rifle. The knots wouldn't concern me, in someway keeping with the 'age' and style of the rifle. I'm sure the originals would have had a few blemishes in the wood work.
If the fore-end looks out of place compared with the butt stock and you find that hard to live with, then look at options which shouldn't include sending the rifle back. The fore-end looks a simple woodworking task, maybe you can find someone to make another out of a better grade of wood to match the butt stock. I'm not a woodworker but I think even I could make a fore-end , not volunteering though.

Worthwhile seeing if the maker will come to the party with a better fore-end, he can put yours on another standard grade rifle.

At the end of the day, its what you can live with cosmetically, the fore-end is perfectly functional as is.

That is terrible. I’d not accept it. If you don’t get this resolved quickly, post the maker of this gun, so we know to avoid it.

The entire forend looks 'off'.
The small flat on the bottom coming from the action doesn't look parallel to the bbl. Looks like it's pointing downward. Maybe it's just the pic.

The upper corner of the FE where it meets the frame looks like it is lower than the metal.

Is there an attachment screw holding the forend to the bbl on the bottom right about even with where the rear 'knot' is?
Something on the bottom profile of the wood looks un-even.

The wood itself, aside from being fence-post plain, looks to have been given a coat of Linseed Oil for a finish ,,and that's it.

I don't know what it cost and what was expected,,but I wouldn't be happy.
..and the 2 knots shouldn't be there. That's for Utility Grade/2nd's wood.

Thanks for confirming my judgment on this.

I ended up returning the rifle to C. Sharps for a refund, less the cost of shipping it back to them.

That was not my first choice.

First, I sent them the photos included in this post and expressed my disappointment that they would send me a stock with knots in it, especially a stock that was supposed to be graded semi-fancy. I asked that they replace the fore end.

They responded that the knots would not "comprise [sic] the stock" because they were not present in a "high stressful area."

I replied that I considered the knots to be defects, that no "semi-fancy" rifle stock should contain visible knots, that the fore end should have been scrapped when the gunsmith first saw that the knots would be visible, and that the aesthetic appearance and value of the rifle are and will be adversely affected by the knots.

Their final reply on the subject was that "knots in walnut are common, and not considered to be defects," that "the knots and figure in the wood caused by them will [not] affect [value]," and that their "warranty does not apply to . . . the butt stock or forend."

C. Sharps refused to replace the fore end as defective, but offered to do so for an additional charge of $800.

So, very disappointed in their poor quality control and customer service, I returned the rifle for a refund.

. . . interesting but not surprising.

there is no way i would accept this thw forend is just a tiny piece of wood and as such there was no reason to use a flawed piece

That's about it for C. Sharps. Sorry about that/

quote:

C. Sharps refused to replace the fore end as defective, but offered to do so for an additional charge of $800.

Only $800 ? How considerate of them. Ass holes of the first magnitude. You are getting a full (less shipping) refund, I hope.

I have built a lot of Custom single shot rifles. I never use figured wood in the forend but go to great trouble to pick a straight grain piece of matching walnut. I don't like figure because it can twist, warp or move and put pressure on the barrel. I rarely use heavy octagon barrels.
I don't mind using a piece with nice color as illustrated here. I prefer quartersawn wood but this one isn't.
This sporter weight barrel Dakota. 257Roberts single shot shows straight forend grain with no figure but nice color. It also has a very tiny pin knot on the flat in front of the action that I don't think will ever cause a problem.
I wouldn't use piece with obvious knots, I always inventoried dozens of seasoned forend blanks to choose a near perfect forend to match any buttstock.

Steven, that is a lovely fore end with proper figure and color - and it is beautifully proportioned besides. I would be proud to own such a fine piece of gun-making art.

I have my eye on a new condition, second-hand Shiloh Sharps Model 1874 with a stock to die for.

If I can get it, the price will be less than the cost of the C. Sharps I just returned, if I include the $800 extra they wanted me to spend on a proper replacement fore end.

I will post photos if I get lucky.

Good luck!!
Shiloh is the only Sharps copy to have if you want a truly nice one. If you can't the Shiloh you're looking at now, I strongly suggest giving Bill Goodman a call.

Thank Mike,
Both Sharps manufacturers are just down the road from me in Big Timber, MT. Many folks don't know that C.Sharps was spawned from Shilo and they are still located directly across the street from one another. I have seen well crafted and beautiful rifles from both companies. Over the decades ownership, management and employees have influenced the rifles from each company.
My recently deceased, good friend Ed Webber was the reason the companies were located in Montana.
As with most custom and semi-custom guns, If you can find what pleases you on the used market you can have it now, usually for much less than new and you know exactly what you are going to get. I hope you find one that pleases you.
I'm lucky enough to own an original Sharps buffalo rifle in .45-70. It is not what I would order with a 30" heavy barrel, it weighs 12lbs.

Watch out for cross grain in the wrist, these guns with a big sidelock and heavy barrel are easily broken!

You guys are spoiled and seem to want $15K full custom work at semi custom prices. Those tiny knots are part of natural walnut, and as long as the butt was in fact, "semi fancy" grade, you got what you paid for.
No one uses fancy wood in fore ends. And those tiny knots mean nothing in looks, or function. I would not have looked at them twice; just take it hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You guys are spoiled and seem to want $15K full custom work at semi custom prices. Those tiny knots are part of natural walnut, and as long as the butt was in fact, "semi fancy" grade, you got what you paid for.
No one uses fancy wood in fore ends. And those tiny knots mean nothing in looks, or function. I would not have looked at them twice; just take it hunting.

I imagine if it was checkered it wouldn’t have ever been an issue…

i know i'm a throwback but if i have a nive piece of wood in the butt the forend better damn well match

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i know i'm a throwback but if i have a nive piece of wood in the butt the forend better damn well match

Funny how perception changes when we compare a two-piece to a single/bolt gun. On a bolt gun a rather plain forend section is desired, yet on a two-piece…

Can't argue with your choice of action...Just for giggles...Here is a stock I just finished up. Four figure blank...at least a half dozen small knots..that's just on one side!

Yep, I have a Rigby bolt gun here now for refinish, I just counted 17 knots on one side. They drilled each one out and glued in walnut plugs. Makes doing a London oil finish a blast…

I like to use shavings..I save them when shaping the stock...stuff them as tght as I can into the flaw, then apply epoxy; crazy glue can work too. and wet sand everything flush.

Since the repair is mosly comprised of the parent wood, climatic, dimensional changes are minimal

Success!

Here's the fore end of the Shiloh Sharps I just bought for a song:



I think I like it a little bit more than the one on the C. Sharps rifle I returned . . . for the refund I used in large part to pay for this Shiloh.

I like everything about this used but like new 1874 Shiloh more than I did about the new but flawed C. Sharps version.

The buttstock is just as fantastic.

I hope I'm out of bad gun luck, but that I haven't used up all of the good kind.

By the way, Duane, that stock is amazing.

If I can't see the knots because of the figure, then they really don't count as knots.

The ones on this C. Sharps rifle were like two thumbs in the eyes.

Great looking Shiloh....congrats!!

quote:

By the way, Duane, that stock is amazing.

If I can't see the knots because of the figure, then they really don't count as knots.

+1

I usually kind of back away from wood with this figure...really more like burl...However, the wood is amazingly trough, but I put extended tangs anyway...it's a 458 WM.

Metal is at the engraver's shop

Mike!!!Show us the buttstock and tell us about the rifle, caliber, barrel, stock wood???

Pinhole knots on a stock with a bit of color and figure are one thing, but those knots looked like two open sores on a plain brown turd. You made the right choice, that second one is beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
Pinhole knots on a stock with a bit of color and figure are one thing, but those knots looked like two open sores on a plain brown turd. You made the right choice, that second one is beautiful.

My reaction exactly!

We are heading off on a hunting trip now, but I will post more photos of the Shiloh when we get back, God willing.