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Neidner-Sukalle -- What to do?
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I just purchased an A.O. Neidner target rifle with a heavy barrel made by William Sukalle. This rifle was built before 1930, and I think the chambering is for the original wildcat .257 Roberts cartridge. Remington changed the shoulder angle and created the commercial version in 1934.

I'd be interested in opinions on whether I should leave the chambering alone or have it altered to fit the commercial cartridge or change it to .257 Ackeley Improved.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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Just leave it alone and enjoy it as is.

It's a target rifle, so just have fun shooting paper every now and then.

Or, consider selling it to someone who would treasure it as is. Like me, or fifty other members here.


Rich
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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If I leave it as is, I'll have to get custom dies made (costing up to $500) and take up loading all over again (and rebuy equipment & components). Sukalle proofed the bejasus out of his barrels, so there can be no doubt that this rifle will shool commercial .257 Roberts +P just fine. Why does originality consisting of the chamber shoulder taper of 15 degree s versus 20 degrees make a difference? Bill Sukalle's ultra-nice rifling will still be there.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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The 15 degree shoulder will give better gas flow than the 20 degree and will be more accurate. Remington changed the shoulder just enough that they wouldn't have to pay a royalty on the cartridge in all likelihood. Having a rifle like this means that you are its caretaker as much or more than its owner, and as such you have an obligation of sorts to preserve it, not butcher it.

Spend the 500 bucks for the dies and reload for it. Once you take that metal out of the chamber you can't put it back.
 
Posts: 807 | Location: East Texas | Registered: 03 November 2007Reply With Quote
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Who is giving you a custom die quote of $500?

and if you already have brass, just neck size


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10189 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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RCBS said a custom set of dies could cost "as much as $500."

I haven't got any brass. My understanding is that they necked down 7x57 brass to make the .257 Roberts.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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Check with CH4D for dies. They may have set on the shelf, depending upon the exact chambering. They can also make you a custom set. And I'd bet for a whole lot less than $500.
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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David,
Stay away from RCBS for custom dies. They are moving their business away from making them. That is why they quoted you so much. Try one of the other companies.
Have you checked if it is safe to fire standard .257 Roberts ammo in your rifle? Fire forming the brass. If so, how does it shoot? If you re-chamber to .257 Ackley, you will still have to reload your ammo.
Best wishes with your new rifle, Tom
 
Posts: 175 | Registered: 08 December 2007Reply With Quote
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I think somebody at RCBS was just blowing smoke up your ass.

I had a set of 8mmx72mm R Sauer dies made, including shell holder for less than $200 by them. I ordered them in June, and they got here last month.

I would bet CH4D has them in stock, for less than $200.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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They list only a ".25 Roberts." No .257 Roberts, no .257 Ackeley Improved.

Here are the .25 Roberts offerings:

2 Die Set: $83.20
FL Sizer: $60.32
Neck Sizer: $60.32
Expander: $29.12
Seater: $48.88
Form (each): $48.88
File Trim: $48.88
Dillon Trim: $60.32
Taper Crimp: $48.88
Reamer Die: $110.24

How many of those items would I need? (I haven't loaded in a while, and I tend to think in terms of two-die sets.)
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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I have a Neidner .25 Roberts that is the original .25 Roberts. Rifle was made in 1935. The previous owner made a chamber cast and had RCBS make a set of dies, so I know they have the tooling. I do not have the die box in front of me right now, but as I recall they box is marked .25 Neidner. I suspect that the previous owner was not up on his Roberts history, and just assumed that a custom .25 caliber with Neidner on the barrel must be a .25 Neidner. If you like I cna check the box tonight and see if it has an RCBS part number to help them find the correct tooling.

Here are a few pics of the rifle.




John
 
Posts: 583 | Location: illinois | Registered: 03 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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A friend recommends Hornaday dies over RCBS. On another gun board, people say that RCBS is not eager to make dies these days, and they recommended CH4D (whom I'd not heard of. Opinions?
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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I phoned CH4D and spoke to Dave Davison. He once made dies, years ago, for the wildcat .257, and when he made a new die, he always makes an extra set. So he looked and found that he had a set of dies sitting on the shelf. Those dies he made long ago, the notes said, were for a Niedner rifle made in 1932. He offered to take back the dies, if they are not for the correct chambering, but he and I agree that the odds are...
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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As my Grandfather once said about a cousin that had come into a large sum of money and paid everything off; "you are shittin' in tall cotton today...".

Where are the pictures?
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Where are the pictures?


Rich, Check the post three above yours. Links to pics there.


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Gun Control - A theory espoused by some monumentally stupid people; who claim to believe, against all logic and common sense, that a violent predator who ignores the laws prohibiting them from robbing, raping, kidnapping, torturing and killing their fellow human beings will obey a law telling them that they cannot own a gun.
 
Posts: 992 | Location: Spokane, WA | Registered: 19 July 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by David Zincavage:
I phoned CH4D and spoke to Dave Davison. He once made dies, years ago, for the wildcat .257, and when he made a new die, he always makes an extra set. So he looked and found that he had a set of dies sitting on the shelf. Those dies he made long ago, the notes said, were for a Niedner rifle made in 1932. He offered to take back the dies, if they are not for the correct chambering, but he and I agree that the odds are...


I figured he would. Might I ask the selling price?
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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$83.20
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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Does anyone know a source of custom brass, i.e. 7x57 brass head stamped .257 Roberts.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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What do you guys think about resizing .257 Roberts +P brass?
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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Originally posted by David Zincavage:
What do you guys think about resizing .257 Roberts +P brass?


It should work just fine.
 
Posts: 8169 | Location: humboldt | Registered: 10 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by sharpsguy:
The 15 degree shoulder will give better gas flow than the 20 degree and will be more accurate. Remington changed the shoulder just enough that they wouldn't have to pay a royalty on the cartridge in all likelihood. Having a rifle like this means that you are its caretaker as much or more than its owner, and as such you have an obligation of sorts to preserve it, not butcher it.

Spend the 500 bucks for the dies and reload for it. Once you take that metal out of the chamber you can't put it back.


With all due respect, I strongly disagree with this opinion. Thousands of Palmisano-Pindell-Cartridge shooters would probably disagree as well. I think shoulder angle has little to do with accuracy. An old friend of mine who shot bench rest from the 50's up through the late 90's shot the 222 for years, but switched to the 22 Waldog because the Lapua brass was tougher and he did't have to trim his brass. Case capacities and performance were equal. Case shape was vastly different, including a huge difference in shoulder angle. I doubt you would see any accuracy difference between the original Roberts and Remington's version. I suspect the change was made because it might be easier to make what is basically necked down 7x57 brass, which was already being produced.
I would strongly consider the possibility of rechambering to 257 remington Roberts if you just consider this a shooter. However, I might consider it a collectors piece, and see if the NRA museum, or other firearms museum, might be interested in it. I don't know if they buy firearms, but if they do, you could use the money to buy or build something that is easier to deal with. That rifle is part of an interesting piece of firearms history, and I would not modify the chamber.


Matt
FISH!!

Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984:

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."
 
Posts: 3307 | Location: Northern Colorado | Registered: 22 November 2005Reply With Quote
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This thread (which I just revived) identifies the cartridge.

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7464
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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As I said earlier, I would leave it as is and just enjoy it.
 
Posts: 23062 | Location: SW Idaho | Registered: 19 December 2005Reply With Quote
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I must have had over 25 replies on several different forums, all opposing altering the chambering. So I guess I have to go along with the majority on this.

I've already gotten .25 Roberts dies. The downside is that I have not loaded in decades. I gave away all my loading equipment years ago, and now I have to buy everything again.

I think the best advice on loading the cartridge was to do what they did originally and neck down 7x57 brass.

I'm buying 87 and 100 grain bullets. And I'm still trying to decide what powder to use and what load(s) to start with.

One interesting side issue that I've found is that there is some possibility that the rifle could be chambered with a Mann-Neidner Chamber.

"Niedner made many, what were called Mann-Niedner or tight chambers. These chambers used a very tight case that was never re-sized."

"Many of the Niedner chambered rifles have what is called a Mann-Niedner chamber which is a very tight chamber so you must use a little caution when loading for it if that is a the case. Most Mann-Niedner chambers are so tight that the case never needs resizing."

But, of course, this rifle must have been chambered by Sukalle.
 
Posts: 16 | Registered: 09 November 2014Reply With Quote
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