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Are the usual sources for new production Mauser bottom metal producing. Are they stocking anything, is it available. | ||
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Apparently not, maybe you should make some. | |||
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Nobody wants to hold inventory on slow moving items. If anyone else is interested I'd go in on a big order if we could get a decent discount. KJK | |||
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Hmmm, haven't even been built and you already want a discount | |||
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it never ends.... | |||
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Questions: 1. Is it more economical to run a batch of 50-100, or to make them one at a time to order? 2. Would any production cost savings achieved in larger runs affect the end price? Answers to the above are well known manufacturing and marketing 101 principles, but... 3. Depending on your answers to #1 & 2, what do you think are the chances that volume pricing was what Kolo-Pan was referring to when he used the (apparently offensive) term "discount"? ...and if you are a manufacturer of these kind of low volume specialty products: 4. Why TF would you treat a potential customer like shit who is just trying to drum up some interest in placing an order?! Seriously guys, this vendetta against Kolo-Pan has turned from healthy campfire sarcasm into the bitchy old hen's club... | |||
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You don't know Kolo Pan like I and the others know him. He is a sheister in the truest sense of the word Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Please excuse any typos, 1've got stuff to do. About 2 years before the 100th year of the 375 H&H I was approached by Holland & Holland to see if I would be willing to supply them with 100 375 H&H magazine assemblies to be fit to standard length 98's. The company had plans to bring out a consecutive serial numbered commemorative rifle for this occasion. Apparently they couldn't get any from Blackburn. Hollands was willing to advance a deposit to get the ball rolling so to speak. Nice gesture but I declined that offer wisely. When all the CAD design work was done, material cost were factored in, export cost calculated etc. I proposed the following. (1) complete drop magazine assembly made from 4130 that held 5 down properly and 1 up if your chose to do so. the floor plate release lever would already be contoured and serrated via EDM wire. Only polish work would be required on the whole unit, zero file work unless you just had to say you had. (1) Magnum Bolt Stop assembly that was originally supplied on the early Oberndorf Magnum 98's. Like the magazine box well the shoulder of the stop was positioned further to the rear allowing you more recoil lug to be left on the front bullet ramp and lower recoil lug area. A smart move (2) Slotted magazine assembly screws, front and rear as it was a drop box (1) Follower plate for the above (1) magazine spring for all the above Then I made them an offer to alter the underside of any 98 receiver they would be willing to supply to show them how I would set and machine the mag well and rails on the underside to make this all come together in the least amount of time properly. The cost was $ 1400.00 per unit set That cost allowed for a 40 % profit margin. I'm in this make a living. That's to expensive was the cry ! I then asked what the rifle was going to sell for retail ? Lots of toe digging and shuffling. When I said if the average cost would be anywhere near they're typical rifle we'd be looking at $ 44,000.00 So if we divide $44,000 by $1,400.00 this cluster of Echols parts would represents one 31th of the rifles cost. These parts are just as important as the receiver and or the bolt. More important than the engraving and less costly than the average highend Euro Scope that would settle into the rings on this rig and likely be less in cost than the stock blank they'd use. More toe dragging, "The bean counters wont go for it" came the reply. I never looked back and moved on To some this is a game, to others it's a profession. Somewhere the line between the two has become a bit muddy. | |||
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Apparently not, and he may be, but I can only judge him on the basis of a handful of posts here, and so far I haven't seen anything worthy of the level of scorn he is getting. DArcy, good story, and no arguments here as I think you are helping to make my point. That point being; if they had only wanted 10 your unit price would likely have been even higher, while if you were competing for a contract for 100 a month for 10 years you could have squeezed it down a bit from there... Truth? P.S. Timan, sorry to gum up your thread. Just out of curiousity though, I thought you made your own bottom metal to go with your actions, is that not the case any more? Or do you, but you are testing the waters to possibly gear up production to meet demand? | |||
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Seriously montea6b Kolo-pan has a vendetta against custom gunmakers making a living. ALWAYS demanding prices being reasonable. If anyone isn't happy about the floormetals that are available and their cost, they should make them on their own. Then offer them here on the forum for reasonable prices. Or pay a machine shop to make them and you can put 50 to 100 on the shelf and see how long it takes to get your money back. I won't hold my breath. The time it takes to machine them pales in comparison to the time it takes to come up with a CORRECT print to build them from. Years of experience never factors into the reasonable pricing that's always demanded. On top of that, everyone wants the magazine assembly you didn't make. Mexican, Peruvian, short mag, long mag, drop mag...the list never ends. 50-100 of each of these would never sell out even at "reasonable" prices. | |||
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I agree 100%. Pay up, compete, or STFU and use cast or milsurp metal. I just thought that a guy apparently trying to garner enough interest to get those 50-100 off the shelf and into the hands of paying customers ought to maybe catch a little break from the business he is trying to support. But I understand how endless dickering can wear thin too. I've said enough, again sorry for gumming this thread up further... (I would be happy to delete my posts to clean things up, but then responses are left hanging without context. Just let me know if you want me to.) | |||
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My point is he's not trying to support them. Quite the opposite. | |||
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In short the answer is yes. It is a function of numbers at the front, middle and back end And I'm not picking on anybody Again Magazines, for what receiver, for what specific cartridges and lengths ? how many can you sell per year ? How many support accessory parts for those assemblies ? followers, mag springs, etc will you need and sell per year How many custom rifles are actually being made in the USA per year ? and chambered for what ? now there's a place to start with market analysis before we start ordering any cutters or cold roll. | |||
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James said it much more eloquently than I did | |||
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Montea6B I recall from years ago, on three occasions, when Ted Blackburn was backed up against a wall. Lots of people saying they would like to order, but nobody sending any money. He needed inventory! On three separate occasions I purchased 5 bottom metals from him at a discount price and held that inventory until I could sell it. Really not any different than what Brownells and Midway USA do on a bigger scale. Finally Duane started making his bottom metal, and Ted got sick and sold his business. I know that, for him at least, he needed to move everything he made as soon as possible, and that is why I said that it is tough to sit on unsold inventory. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. But not to material fallacies as offered here. Everything is always Ad Hominem. The fallacy of shifting an argument from the point being discussed to the personality of an opponent . Instead of dealing with the other person's thesis on the merits, the fallacious argument attacks reputation and moral character, or refers to low intelligence, inferior social position, lack of education, or similar personal shortcomings. (For example: Don't talk to this guy about that subject, he's an idiot) (If I did that in court I'd be thrown out very promptly) There are thousands of other examples, many advanced in this thread. One can tell if he or she does it by listening to oneself discuss an issue with another person. If you find yourself saying "you" a lot, or in talking with anther person yoy say "he" or "she" a lot, you are probably talking more about the person than the issue at hand Here, the real issue seems to be a shortage of bottom metal for custom rifles. I advanced a theory that its difficult to sit on slow moving inventory. I suggested doing something no different than Brownell's or Midway USA would do. They would expect a discount for holding large amounts of inventory. But all of a sudden I am supposedly a guy that doesn't want anyone to make a profit. Not true. I was suggesting fairness. Is it not fair for a person to be paid to hold inventory until it is needed. That is what every store in America does. By the way, I know what dickering is. I don't think I have ever had a client who didn't dicker. And if the needed help I gave it to them! Go to your local gunmaker and ask for a couple thousand dollars off on your next custom rifle and you'll be told to not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Then come on over to my place and I can show you 150 files of cases I did for free that would have otherwise cost between $3000 and $5000. What is that at a minimum. I'd say about $450,000. KJK | |||
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You don't understand manufacturing as well as you could. The discount isn't for holding inventory, it's for a larger quantity purchase that involves less setup time per part than making a few at a time. It also is one purchase order, one check to deposit and one box to ship. Now take a small business like mine and figure out how much time is involved in talking to 50-100 customers that ACTUALLY purchase something, standing at line at the bank 50-100 times, packing 50-100 boxes and making sure you have the right address on each and every one. Ted Blackburn didn't have a gold mine business making floormetals. Rumor has it he had problems paying his electric bills as well as machine payments. My guess is he was selling his floormetals way too cheap and couldn't sustain his business. There is NO gold at the end of this rainbow. You would have better luck finding the gold from The Outer Banks.
I thought you were a public defender. Why were you charging? Everybody knows lawyers prices are reasonable. Right???? Maybe I should charge by the hour for every minute I spend on the phone with a client. Oh, wait, that would be unreasonable. IMO there are far more qualified lawyers in this great country than qualified custom gunmakers that can correctly make these custom floormetals. Crap. I got to get back out in the shop and keep building fixtures and programming my CNC for parts I can no longer purchase. Now, do I make 2 parts or 200??? | |||
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Call Pinetree casts (Ruger) put in an order for a few hundred pieces. https://ruger.com/casting/PDF/PineTreeCastings.pdf | |||
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I absolutely love my Ruger Cast revolvers. Best in the world IMO. They are far and above others in durability. Throw it on the ground several times and it will still fire. Try that with a S&W. Ain't gonna happen. Smiths are pretty nice when tuned up for certain shooting disciplines. However I would rather bet my life on a Ruger in the worst situations. Who's going to make all the different patterns at roughly 3% oversize for all the different Mauser floormetals. I'm sure it could be done and done well. They will just NOT be finished as well as a machined floormetal. Gaps here and there not acceptable for the work I do, due to the nature of a casting. If you wanted to cast the part over/undersize and machine it to size then you have to deal with machining rough castings which is very hard on tooling and a pain in the ass to fixture. It's not impossible. Just will eat much more $$$ in tooling and fixturing. I think this could be a low cost version of what Kevin's looking for. Just don't expect it to fit into a standard inlet with no gaps. Ain't gonna happen. And that's not a bad thing, it's just the nature of the beast. Pay less and you get less. Timex works just like a Rolex. They both keep pretty good time. | |||
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Check PT&G feller. | |||
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Hmmmm...that means the ones who paid full price got screwed! | |||
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No. It means that the folks that paid full price wouldn't have gotten anything at all if I wouldn't have financed their manufacture. As I said above, no different than if he would have made them for Brownells and Brownells sold them. They were sold out of his shop. Just owned by me. I liked Ted. He was very kind to me. Allowed me to come into his shop a number of times to watch him make his bottom metal. Answered aa lot of questions. Showed me alot of things. So I was good to him in return and when he needed help -if I could do it- I did it. And what he needed help with most was inventory! He needed to have it in order to sell it but he couldn't make it because he couldn't afford to make it and have it sit there. He needed better cash flow. That is the whole point of this discussion. There is a shortage of custom bottome metal makers. Why? I have advanced my theory respectfully. Haven't called anyone any names, etc. Why do YOU think there is a shortage of people making custom bottom metal, and if not a shortage of makers, then of inventory? P. S. I should mention here that although I wouldn't go anymore, I have visited the shops of both Mr. Anderson and Mr. Satterlee. Both were very gracious hosts and gentlemen. KJK | |||
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Pretty sure he was talking about you Kevin. | |||
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You can be sure that I did not pay full price!  KJK | |||
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You keep bringing up Ted as an example. HE WENT BROKE doing it. I guess in your mind the only good gunsmith is a broke ass gunsmith? He just needed better cash flow? How the heck does he get that without raising prices or going to the bank and asking for money for his business with no plan for how he is going to make money to pay it back. As others have said, the demand for this hi-end custom stuff just does not justify the investment that would be needed to stock all the various styles that would be needed. If it were that easy, someone would be doing it. I'd better get back to work to try and not be another broke-ass gunsmith. John | |||
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As to the variables? I have no idea what the variables are other than box size/geometry and screw spacing. There was a thread on Usual Suspects (knife forum) about making a generic frame lock folder. square liners and holds and lock already cut, square blade with lock area and holes drilled (semi mass produced maybe waterjet cut) . Than grind to any shape you want. I made a comment that I though that's what every knifemaker did. All I heard was crickets... I'll bet many do. | |||
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I woudn't have any trouble beleiveing that . Many a time Ted asked if I (and I onow of others) if I could please pay in advance..pay the rent, electric bill...etc I simply did not have the gall to kick a man while he's down by asking for a F....discount. I'm not a bottom feeder.... | |||
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You can call it whatever you want. I will call it what it actually was. A request to finance inventory, finance tooling, pay for rent, etc. I wasn't bottom feeding. I was responding to a request for help the way it was requested. Ted wasn't a bottom feeder. He knew the time value of money. And again, he was a real nice guy! Getting back to the issue of the thread. If one did a cost benefit analysis I think one would find that more units would sell at a lower price than a higher price. That is not to say that I believe people should work for a low price. Rather, they should work for an optimum price. . Probably figured out with differential calculus. What good is it if a person sells his units for $800 each and sells none? About the same goood as if he sells his units for $200 and sells many but doesn't make any money. In other words, as Chinese people are so fond of saying - no good. KJK | |||
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What a completely vacant opinion. You have learned absolutely NOTHING in this thread. Or the countless others where you bitch about reasonable prices. Just go pound sand. You're head is too thick to absorb the knowledge from those that have made these from scratch. You must be a democrat. | |||
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ad hominem but your entitled to your opinion KJK | |||
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"Ad Hominem" This is your favorite comment and has been for years. Don't you realize what a fool you are making of yourself! | |||
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Ad hominem. The topic of the thread is Mauser Bottom Metal. Not my personality. But you are entitled to your opinion KJK | |||
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As the young folks say-He is a chucklefuck! | |||
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More ad hominem. But again, you are entitled to your opinion. KJK | |||
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Just 22WRF sneaking in under a new handle as Kolo Pan | |||
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Kolo-Pan, I initially waded into this kerfuffle saying that I wasn’t taking sides, but really I was kinda defending what I perceived as unfair personal attacks against you. People can be too quick sometimes to get off topic and attack the person, and I generally have empathy for underdogs. However, what I realize now is that the ad hominem attacks are not coming solely as a result of the points you have put forth on this thread, but are a result of the cumulative weight of all your previous interactions with other members. Somewhere in those earlier interactions your true nature has been revealed. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the top-notch custom riflesmiths here, and I was naïve to think that the “old farts” were acting like a mean girl’s clique. These gentlemen are consummate professionals who don’t hide behind the anonymity of an on-line handle. If you truly are the re-incarnation of 22WRF then the ad hominem attacks on your character are entirely warranted. You too are welcome to your opinions, but sometimes a man just needs to know when to STFU… | |||
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Not sneaking in. changed email address. I don't know why gunmakers should have anymore respect than anyone else just for being a gunmaker except maybe guys like MNR and Timan. Shows their beautiful work. Never complains. Shows video. Answers questions. Respects people. Never use ad hominum argument. That is the kind of gunmaker who deserves respect. Those two guys are gentlemen.! Anyway, as long as everyone else has a right to express their opinions, so do I. KJK | |||
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I couldn't agree more! KJK | |||
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No, let's correct this right now: You didn't change your email address, (a simple enough edit to your profile...) you created an entirely different personal AR account, not even remotely similar in name to your previous one. (There's probably a legal term for that sort of obvious deflection...) If you agree with knowing when to STFU then now might be a good time. | |||
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If you didn't use "ad hominun" in a post as you have for years, you couldn't post. | |||
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