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Just saw this on NECG site. Used Rifles Winchester Model 70 .375 Holland & Holland, "New" life for a Used Gun. Pre-64 Model 70 barreled action in a Echols Legend stock. Original 25" factory barrel with NECG sights. One piece Sunnyhill bottom metal. 8.4 pounds. $3,990.00 Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | ||
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I have always been a 375 Holland fan. That old "One rifle, one world..." still holds true today. That said, I am absolutely NOT a plastic fan. | |||
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Me neither. Nonetheless, this one seems like a nice all weather rig for those who prefer one. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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For a hunter who plans on using their rifle more than looking at it that looks like a great deal. The only thing that would improve it is if it were a 375 Ruger instead.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Fibreglass/carbon fibre/kevlar composite rifles stocks being referred to as 'plastic' is human ignorance in action...  They are no more plastic than the advanced composite fibre components on modern passenger jets, uber expensive Americas Cup vessels, or NASA spec. TourDeFrance bicycle frames. Knife proof & bullet proof vests are also made from carbon fibre and Kevlar fibre, nobody with knowledge would refer to them as plastic.
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 Like this one? Pre War '41 action, Tilden safety lever, Krieger barrel, Legend stock, Williams one piece bottom metal and a wooden stock for show and tell and Africa. I'm in the process of replacing all my "travel" Pre 64s with Pre Wars. 2 more long actions to go. All the others still have the original wing safeties, the Tilden a better choice on this one. I wouldn't take a wooden stock to Alaska. I've dropped rifles on rocks and in water- both fresh and salt, used my stock as an anchor to keep me from sliding down hills in snow and dirt. And after a long day's hunt, the last thing I want to do is have to wipe down a fucking rifle. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Plastic does seem a bit derogatory. I had used the term plastic as a generalization to mean any stock built from man made materials no matter what the composition be it solid plastic or a more extensive layering of materials. Composite seems more appropriate for this particular rifle. I will correct my post.
... [/QUOTE]Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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FMC: Can you spare a picture of the other side of that nicely grained stock? CB
Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by custombolt: Plastic does seem a bit derogatory. [QUOTE] "Plastic" is not derogatory. "Tupperware", now that's derogatory!  | |||
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Now Duane, that might be funny to some folks but it's not politically correct to dis minorities like Alaskan guides.  Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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... [/QUOTE]You are barking up the wrong tree, again. "Hard" object construction with fiberglass, carbon fiber or Kevlar is known as FRP construction. A "Kevlar stock" is an FRP stock with Kevlar being the reinforcing fiber. The US Military's "Kevlar helmet" is an FRP helmet, again with Kevlar being the reinforcing fiber. FRP = Fiber Reinforced Plastic. No reason to be offended by an accurate description and the ignorance seems to linger in your mirror. Try Googling FRP. Woven material like that in some "bullet proof" vest or knife proof gloves, etc, which is not bonded with resin, i.e. plastic, is not FRP and it would be an error to refer to it as plastic. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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...  There is no ignorance on my part, since I gave a proper accurate description, when I used the term 'composite' in my first post. you actually quoted me on it, but you blindly missed it or just didn't understand the term. Referring to a composite construction McMillan glassfibre/carbon or Brown Precision glassfibre/carbon/kevlar stock just as 'plastic', is not correct - They like composite Boeing airframes and TreK bicycle frames,..are far from just being plastic. A Dreamliner has about 35t of composite, (23t of fibre fabric/12t resin) so fibre to resin ratio of about 65/35 A Trek brand OCLV frame can be close to 70/30. Honeywell refers to its military helmets as being made of ballistic composite material, developed by their Advanced Fibers and Composites business. NASA,Boeing,Airbus,Trek,Giant and a whole multitude of other companies around the globe use the term composite to describe their products construction....the Team Oracle Americas Cup boat, is built by the company, Core Builders Composites Ltd. However if you personally prefer use to use the term 'FRP' instead of composite, it won't bother me.
the real problem is that you 'could not see the composites for the FRPs'... | |||
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Again, barking up the wrong tree. All FRP products are composites. However, not all composites are FRP, which makes the term "composite" misleading when applied to FRP products. "Composite" is merely an accurate but misleading term adopted by those trying to describe their favorite FRP product as anything but what it really is, which is plastic. Try a bare minimum of simple Google research before proving the old adage. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Isn't it really all about the resins???? It isn't the fiberglass or the carbon fiber or whatever the substrate is, ultimately it's the resins (plastics) that hold them in place and give them their ultimate strength. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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Yes, in FRP products, like rifle stocks, but it is the fibers which give the strength. The resin gives the fibers shape and holds them in place. Different resins have different properties too. Free 500grains | |||
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Phil, i already followed that advice... Phil. | |||
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The term composite is not misleading when referring to a McMillan stock, since they are in fact a composite construction item. in addition PSE,Manners and Robertson all call their syn. rifles stocks composite.
Fact is, a McMillan is genuinely a composite construction item , not just plain resin[or what you would call plastic] Calling such products just plastic ,is a major error. Anyway,seeing that you believe your Google view is superior, go tell the tech team at Honeywell & Team Oracle boat builders, and several other multi-million dollar composite construction companies,that their products are wrongly described as composite by them, ...because you ignorantly believe they are just plastic. You are free to perpetuate your ignorance in your life, just don't foolishly expects others in the world to follow suite. | |||
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Trax, The ignorance is yours alone. Every item you cite to prove your point is of FRP construction. Fiber Reinforced PLASTIC. Lipstick on a pig doesn't change the nature of the pig... JPK Free 500grains | |||
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As usual trax demonstrates his inability to understand basic chemical and engineering technology and terms. Perhaps he has NEVER looked at the definition of plastic in terms of the chemistry and engineering science. Plastic is not defined by firearms applications. It is defined by its chemical and mechanical properties - neither of which is understood by trax.
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Y'all are looking at this all wrong. The older term plastic (as in plastic surgery) comes from the greek verb "to shape, remodel." So Duane Wiebe's rifles are actually plastic wooden stocked rifles........................... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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I never stated it was not FRP, however it still remains a genuine composite construction item. only a dill would disagree. However, You referring to such items just as plastic, it stupid and wrong.
accurate.... but misleading?....  SIMPLE STRAIGHT FOWARD FACT.. its just not plastic , its actually and quite correctly - a composite construction. I repeat theres nothing misleading about calling them composite construction. Fools are free to believe otherwise. | |||
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-Would you call the fibres in your wood stocks plastic? - Would you call a laminated wood stock just 'plastic' because it has resin impregnating and bonding the wood fibre material? Then its ignorant and naive to describe items made from resin impregnated glass & carbon fibres, just as 'plastic'. However if you believe composites are just plastic, think of that next time you fly and risk you life in a Boeing jet. and I suggest you express your dislike to your carrier, that you don't like traveling in 'tupperware' aircraft...
I don't recall anyone here saying that it was. anyway," Mr. Thats not a Solid", why don't you expand on your other idiotic statement that LASERS DONT ENGRAVE. | |||
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The integrity of composite construction items comes down to more than just resins. one must also consider: - the ratio of fibre to resin, - the type and grade of fibres and resins - The proper distribution of fibres and resin in the product. - the particular weave construction of the fibres - the layout/orientation of the fibres and what form they come in (e.g.; loose fibre or sheet form) - the curing method.( different methods alter-change the mechanical properties) | |||
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Again, there are composites that are not FRP. You cite FRP products. Fiber Reinforced PLASTIC. Free 500grains | |||
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I see you have done some Google work and read Wikipedia, congrats. You can repeat some basic considerations of FRP construction. Fiber Reinforced PLASTIC construction. Free 500grains | |||
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Exlax Still trying to define industrial technology from your tiny little world of OZ? Oz has 20 million subjects living off in the back woods of the Southwest Pacific connected to the rest of the world by TV, the internet and jumbo jets. How is it possible that one of those silly isolated subjects thinks he knows what happens in the real world? You are the idiot if you think you can call what lazers do engraving. Lazers mark parts. If you think they engrave your standards are pretty sorry. My employers own their own lazers and mark millions of parts a year. They also buy laser marked parts. Take a look at laser marking with a little magnification. It is crappy. If you call that engraving your probably like jail house tattoos also. The rumor is that the lazer was not invented in OZ. Next you seemed determined to define a composite as something used for a gunstock with the emphasis on the reinforcing material and not on the resin. Try defining composite if you can. I don't think you know how or what all a composite includes. You don't even know how to make a synthetic stock. Why would you think you can define it? You certainly cannot say it is not a plastic. Look up the term plastic. The resin is the primary material. Synthetic stocks date back to before your first crapped in a diaper. Get over it. Solids?? Again OZ has this tiny population that does not define the ammo terminology for the whole wide world. The US has 15 times the population of OZ and manufactures way more of everything hunting rifle and ammo related. The US has the largest single group of hunters and shooters, the largest single market for firearms and the largest manufacturing base for firearms and ammunition. Practice by an ignorant ozzie does not constitute the definition of ammunition terminology for the US or the rest of the world. Especially one with no experience manufacturing manufacturing ammo or components. Only a BS artist with ZERO technical knowledge would try to tell the world that FMJs should be called solids. You would be laughed at to request solids when you mean FMJs. Would you call a 50grn .25 ACP FMJ bullet a solid? No and you don't call the 7.62X25 bullets solids either. Nor do you call a FMJ silhouette bullet for a .44 Mag revolver a solid. But I suppose you would try to call trapper ammo with FMJs solids wouldn't you? Especially the .22 Hornet and .222 Rem stuff that probably never made it to OZ.
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Will the 375 Ruger feed through standard mag action (i.e. 300 win, 338 win etc.) pre-64 and/or classic actions from new haven or south Carolina? I asked this same questions in Gunsmithing regarding Classic mod 70 actions, with no response. Thanks Matt Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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This discussion has an incredible resemblance to the "genuine naugahyde" discussions of years ago. Since naugahyde is plastic the common term became "pleather", for plastic leather. So Duane, how about a pwood stock, from a ptree? Since I can call anything whatever I want, on a rifle if it's not metal or wood or leather or ivory or rubber, I'll call it plastic. Sure, some plastics are really good, others less so. Still plastic. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Common plastics and uses Polyester (PES) – Fibers, textiles. Polyethylene terephthalate (PET) – Carbonated drinks bottles, peanut butter jars, plastic film, microwavable packaging. Polyethylene (PE) – Wide range of inexpensive uses including supermarket bags, plastic bottles. High-density polyethylene (HDPE) – Detergent bottles, milk jugs, and molded plastic cases. Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) – Plumbing pipes and guttering, shower curtains, window frames, flooring. Polyvinylidene chloride (PVDC) (Saran) – Food packaging. Low-density polyethylene (LDPE) – Outdoor furniture, siding, floor tiles, shower curtains, clamshell packaging. Polypropylene (PP) – Bottle caps, drinking straws, yogurt containers, appliances, car fenders (bumpers), plastic pressure pipe systems. Polystyrene (PS) – Packaging foam/"peanuts", food containers, plastic tableware, disposable cups, plates, cutlery, CD and cassette boxes. High impact polystyrene (HIPS) -: Refrigerator liners, food packaging, vending cups. Polyamides (PA) (Nylons) – Fibers, toothbrush bristles, tubing, fishing line, low strength machine parts: under-the-hood car engine parts or gun frames. Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) – Electronic equipment cases (e.g., computer monitors, printers, keyboards), drainage pipe. Polyethylene/Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (PE/ABS) – A slippery blend of PE and ABS used in low-duty dry bearings. Polycarbonate (PC) – Compact discs, eyeglasses, riot shields, security windows, traffic lights, lenses. Polycarbonate/Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene (PC/ABS) – A blend of PC and ABS that creates a stronger plastic. Used in car interior and exterior parts, and mobile phone bodies. Polyurethanes (PU) – Cushioning foams, thermal insulation foams, surface coatings, printing rollers (Currently 6th or 7th most commonly used plastic material, for instance the most commonly used plastic in cars). Special purpose plastics Maleimide/Bismaleimide Used in high temperature composite materials. Melamine formaldehyde (MF) – One of the aminoplasts, and used as a multi-colorable alternative to phenolics, for instance in moldings (e.g., break-resistance alternatives to ceramic cups, plates and bowls for children) and the decorated top surface layer of the paper laminates (e.g., Formica). Plastarch material – Biodegradable and heat resistant, thermoplastic composed of modified corn starch. Phenolics (PF) or (phenol formaldehydes) – High modulus, relatively heat resistant, and excellent fire resistant polymer. Used for insulating parts in electrical fixtures, paper laminated products (e.g., Formica), thermally insulation foams. It is a thermosetting plastic, with the familiar trade name Bakelite, that can be molded by heat and pressure when mixed with a filler-like wood flour or can be cast in its unfilled liquid form or cast as foam (e.g., Oasis). Problems include the probability of moldings naturally being dark colors (red, green, brown), and as thermoset it is difficult to recycle. Polyepoxide (Epoxy) Used as an adhesive, potting agent for electrical components, and matrix for composite materials with hardeners including amine, amide, and Boron Trifluoride. Polyetheretherketone (PEEK) – Strong, chemical- and heat-resistant thermoplastic, biocompatibility allows for use in medical implant applications, aerospace moldings. One of the most expensive commercial polymers. Polyetherimide (PEI) (Ultem) – A high temperature, chemically stable polymer that does not crystallize. Polyimide—A High temperature plastic used in materials such as Kapton tape. Polylactic acid (PLA) – A biodegradable, thermoplastic found converted into a variety of aliphatic polyesters derived from lactic acid which in turn can be made by fermentation of various agricultural products such as corn starch, once made from dairy products. Polymethyl methacrylate (PMMA) – Contact lenses (of the original "hard" variety), glazing (best known in this form by its various trade names around the world; e.g., Perspex, Oroglas, Plexiglas), aglets, fluorescent light diffusers, rear light covers for vehicles. It forms the basis of artistic and commercial acrylic paints when suspended in water with the use of other agents. Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) – Heat-resistant, low-friction coatings, used in things like non-stick surfaces for frying pans, plumber's tape and water slides. It is more commonly known as Teflon. Urea-formaldehyde (UF) – One of the aminoplasts and used as a multi-colorable alternative to phenolics. Used as a wood adhesive (for plywood, chipboard, hardboard) and electrical switch housings. Furan—Resin based on Furfuryl Alcohol used in foundry sands and biologically derived composites. Silicone—Heat resistant resin used mainly as a sealant but also used for high temperature cooking utensils and as a base resin for industrial paints. Polysulfone—High temperature melt processable resin used in membranes, filtration media, water heater dip tubes and other high temperature applications. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Fine rifle for sure. I was not a plastic fan until I owned own. I really like the Bell & Carlson, and McMillian stocks I have used. Feel fine, durable and do not wince when it gets banged around. I have several model 70 super grades that I like to look at but I do "baby" them a bit. One thing I really like about plastic is that they can be painted any way you you like. I am having fun revisiting the '60's in my color choices! | |||
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Merriam-Webster Dictionary: plas-tic \'plas-tik\ adj {L plasticus of moulding, fr. Gk plastikos to mould form} 1: capable of being moulded <~ clay> 2: characterized by or using modeling <~ arts> 3: made or consisting of a plastic . Synonymms PLIABLE, PLIANT, DUCTILE, MALLEABLE, ADAPTABLE - PLAS-TIC-I-TY \plas-'ti-sc-te\n plastic n : a plastic substance: esp : a synthetic or processed material that can be formed into rigid objects or into films or filaments Things, per examples, that are formed from a plastic form: concrete, steel, fiberglass, paper & cast iron for beginners. Trees are pliable because of lignum & natural resins. ?? NRA Life Member “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples’ liberty teeth.” George Washington | |||
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Matt, I hope this doesn't start an argument on what a "standard" action is. On the other hand it might be preferable to this one on what makes a plastic a plastic; even if it is applied as a finish to a wood stock. But the answer to your questions is YES the 375 Ruger will fit a standard. That was the primary reason is was developed. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I've hunted mountain sheep over a dozen times since 1980 and every time was with a "plastic" stock. I love and appreciate my fine wood stocks but there's something special about a "plastic" stock on a special hunt. (even you snobs know of what I speak) God bless modern technology for bringing us something special. God bless Mother Nature for bringing us something special. Is there a reason we can't like both? Some of you guys are so negative and opinionated that you stink of arrogance! Confidence looks good on anyone, arrogance looks good on no one. Good grief! Zeke | |||
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Well, I ordered an expensive 'wood' blank from Mr. Freeman today. It will fit in w/ my 338WM Legend stocked rifle or the HS stocked rifles. To avoid this petty pissing, moaning I think I am just going to distinguish my rifles as 'wood' stocked and 'non wood stocked'. Easy and a correct description. | |||
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You know what. I just thought about it. My turds are composite. | |||
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Natural resins in wood are acceptable to luddites, but apparently man-made resins in a stock are not. But we need to remember that there are people who pride themselves on not using a stock duplicator, but will gladly use other machines to conveniently & more speedily duplicate their metal components, so go figure.. 
non FRP composites do exist yes,...but so what? We are specifically talking about syn. rifle stock composition -- 4-fck sake! FRP,GRP,...whatever, they are still in effect a true composition of either a single type or combined type fibre(s) and epoxy, calling them just plastic/epoxy is misleading and inaccurate, or in a word, ignorant. The human body is a composite structure; of bone held up into a distinctive shape by various types of soft tissue. | |||
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Good Lord, and I thought this thread finally died a quiet death... | |||
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this from some time ago...
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For those of you who havn't had the pleasure of seeing one of D'Arcy's magazine boxes for a pre-64 M-70. they are works of mechanical art.  But M-70's never had a box designed for the Ruger 375 based cartridge. It is usually no problem for your average gun smith to slightly widen a box of a standard lenght Mauser to make it feed Ruger rounds. But they are not as classy or slick feeding as one of D'Arcy's. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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