A few friends and customers and I have been talking about building a small rimfire/centerfire action for custom rifles. We feel like this is a demand that is currently unfilled.

We have two designs that we are looking at cost and feasibility for production. Both are bolt action. Both can be single shot or magazine fed. Both can be rimfire or centerfire. Both can fit 22 Hornet and similar length cartridges.

Of the two designs, one is more manufacturing and cost friendly. There are also old versions of this action available, though they are harder to find. The second design is less manufacturing friendly, and thus would cost more. However it is a design that most probably do not know in its original form and is extremely rare. It is also a phenomenal action. Competed at the Olympics and scored well, phenomenal.

Understanding that original 1922's can be had for $1000-$1500 on a regular basis, and a plethora of old actions can be bought for well under $1000 for 22's, offering a commercial action for $1000 for a rimfire might be difficult. That same action in centerfire might be desirable at that price. There are not as many options for a small centerfire cartridge. Offering a more expensive, albeit better action, at an increased price, say $1500, might be even more difficult.

One example I built just for giggles I chambered in 7.62x25. It's a fun little carbine and my son spent better part of an hour plinking steel plates with it. Out of a 16" barrel it's zippy. If it were magazine fed I'd bet he would never let go of it.

So, with some trepidation, I am curious to hear what people think. Let's try to keep this discussion relatively on track. 30 people responding that it's a sweet idea doesn't really help if only 5 would actually buy. Would love to hear levels of interest from buyers and builders alike.

What would it be that a pimped up CZ with DIP bottom metal can't be. Only thing I can think of is an upgraded 3 pos safety.

Price price price.

Can some one on a hourly wage afford it.

Action, plus barrel, plus stock, plus optic/sights, plus gunsmith. A person would easily have some dollars invested real quick.

Would this action be smaller than the Sako L461?

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
What would it be that a pimped up CZ with DIP bottom metal can't be. Only thing I can think of is an upgraded 3 pos safety.

A valid point. Simply put, it wouldn't, not compared to the 452/455. Compared to the 527, which is no longer in production, it would have a few benefits, primarily better bottom metal and a better safety.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Price price price.

Can some one on a hourly wage afford it.

The vast majority of guns discussed on this forum are unobtainable by an hourly wage earner. I'm not sure that is really the target market of most of the custom rifle industry.

Arguably, if a customer is concerned about price price price, over quality and all else, there are literally a thousand models from $150-$500.

quote:

Originally posted by rcraig:
Action, plus barrel, plus stock, plus optic/sights, plus gunsmith. A person would easily have some dollars invested real quick.

Most of my friends who are rifle builders are building in the $8k-$15k range. I don't personally think there is a market for $15k 22's, but I am continually amazed at what people will pay. There is a bustling market for $3k-$6k rifles it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Would this action be smaller than the Sako L461?

Pretty comparable. I don't have a L461 in hand to compare, and it's been awhile since I handled one. We looked at producing the ES/MS Mauser action, mainly because it is one of my favorites, but I had several people tell me it is TOO small. Even for a 22.

Of all my custom rifles, I get most pleasure out of my custom BRNO Mod 2 22LR and Sako A1 222Rem.

I am really enjoying having customs built on small actions in small calibres. Get the same enjoyment and I can spend hours shooting them without damaging my shoulder (and wallet).

I think you on to something very good, but with as most things in the custom gun trade, everyone is keen until time comes to pay up…

I wished I had more inquiries/builds for the small guns. Love them! Your odds of 5/30 are way high, 1/50 is more realistic in my limited experience for interest gathering/plumping the green down for an action.

How would you differentiate? I think you're looking at the market that Cooper Firearms is in (Western Classic 57M, etc).

But there're also old CZ's actions, new CZ action, Vudoo (more focused at target games probably), Springfields new .22 action, Howa's small centerfire action, Bergara's .22 action, Ruger 77/22 and 77/357 series, Anschutz...these might also be guns/actions folks would choose for a high-end custom in rimfire/small centerfire cartridges. I get that most of those are less exclusive than what you're proposing to build, but I think there's still pressure on you from them.

And all of those offer complete guns, so there is a way to get a barrel and stock and bottom metal right out of the gate. Gun builders can figure out the barrel tenon and inlet a stock, and you're including bottom metal. So maybe that's all okay. But there seems to be a ton of money lately in pre-fit barrels and erector set "customs". Not really what most of us like on this forum, but there does seem to be a lot of money behind the idea of screw-on "customs" that you might want to leave yourself accessible to. Look at Terminus Zeus actions and Bighorn actions and the Coup de Grace actions that cater mostly to the long-range shooting crowd.

I hate to discourage you, because I like the idea and I love smaller guns in small calibers. But I think there's a fair amount of competition there and I don't know how you'd carve out your niche.

Something like the 1700 series Anschutz might go over well.

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:
Of all my custom rifles, I get most pleasure out of my custom BRNO Mod 2 22LR and Sako A1 222Rem.

I am really enjoying having customs built on small actions in small calibres. Get the same enjoyment and I can spend hours shooting them without damaging my shoulder (and wallet).

I think you on to something very good, but with as most things in the custom gun trade, everyone is keen until time comes to pay up…

Yes, I have found this market segment to be fickle. I also enjoy my small bore rifles the most. I can spend all afternoon at the range with the kids and spend $50.

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Originally posted by Aaron Little:
I wished I had more inquiries/builds for the small guns. Love them! Your odds of 5/30 are way high, 1/50 is more realistic in my limited experience for interest gathering/plumping the green down for an action.

Honestly 1 in 100 is probably a more accurate number of who's word is reliable. I just opened up a presale for a product that numerous people said there was lots of interest. I sold exactly 4.

quote:

Originally posted by skl1:
How would you differentiate? I think you're looking at the market that Cooper Firearms is in (Western Classic 57M, etc).
***snip***
I hate to discourage you, because I like the idea and I love smaller guns in small calibers. But I think there's a fair amount of competition there and I don't know how you'd carve out your niche.

This is something I have been giving a serious amount of consideration to. I don't have a good answer. I am trying to find a middle ground, as I tend to cater to incredibly niche products.

Stocks and barrels are something I have given a lot of thought, and I don't have a good answer yet. I am working on setting up production with a supplier who has a 16 spindle duplicator. So semi-inlets will be an option. I also have a local supplier who is a large barrel manufacturer. Problem is, I doubt they will want to turn 100 barrels between their orders of 20,000 to 100,000.

All real things to consider, incorporate, and grow with. Testing the market with minimal capital outlay and slowly growing is the goal. As I mentioned, and as you stated, the 22 market is awash with makes and models from dime store garbage, to boutique. I think the real market segment to drive at is the 22 Hornet to 223 range.

quote:

Originally posted by rcraig:
Something like the 1700 series Anschutz might go over well.

One of the actions may be related to the 1700 series grandfather. Great grandfather? I'm not sure how that lineage would work out.