Just a question to all y'all out there, if I have a rifle pillar bedded do I need to have it glass bedded as well. This is a walnut stock Sako 75 rifle.

Thanks--Don

I do both at the same time.

Thanks Larry, but that is my question if I have a rifle pillar bedded is it needed to also have it glass bedded? it seems to me that if it is pillar bedded--eliminating wood to action contact--I wouldn't need to glass bed then????

If you just do the pillars all the recoil is taken by the pillars alone. Assuming no bearing by the recoil lug this could result in a split stock. Bed the action insuring full contact with the back of the recoil lug. Bedding to the top of the stock insures lateral stability.

Dave

Glass bedding can also help seal the inletting.

Thanks Nopride and Slivers--that's what I needed to know--I appreciate it!

quote:

If you just do the pillars all the recoil is taken by the pillars alone.

If your pillars, whether they are bedded over or not, are functioning as recoil lugs, don't expect great accuracy.

If you are going to pillar bed, why go through all the project and not do the complete bedding at the same time. And I can't imagine not bedding the recoil lug.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Thanks Larry, but that is my question if I have a rifle pillar bedded is it needed to also have it glass bedded? it seems to me that if it is pillar bedded--eliminating wood to action contact--I wouldn't need to glass bed then????

Pillar bedding only eliminates wood to metal contact where the pillars are. What about the rest of the action and recoil lug?

My understanding is that both are done together. Pillar bedding should ensure that the action screws do not touch the pillars. Therefore the rear of the lug needs to be bedded.

The other factor in my mind is that the contact between the rifle and the pillars are unlikely to be 100% flush. The hand full of rifles I have done as DIY always had some epoxy somewhere between the pillar and rifle - resulting in 100% surface contact.

In the early 90s, I used to make brass pillars from agri sprayer lance tubing.

If you take a rifle to a gunsmith and ask them to pillar bed there's several different methods used. Some would bed behind the recoil lug and the tang area with pillars. Others would bed the entire action area with pillars, and still others would tape the barrel and bed everything out through the barrel channel with pillars. I've never heard of someone just installing pillars without at least doing one of the above.

Always glass bed when instilling pillars. But if you are not using a wood stock, then pillars are useless. And on a good glass bedding job, they are unnecessary. The best pillars I made from iron valve guides.

I thought the pillars were to eliminate stock-crush whether wood or synthetic and a proper bedding job was in order wither way.

Even with tight proper wood inletting, I'll still skim-bed for weather protection.

Neither takes the place of a property fit or bedded recoil lug.

My 2 cents, for free
Zeke

Let's say the wood, maybe not fully seasoned DOES shrink. The pillars, I seems to me, would be like stilts leaving action without benefit of any support.

The broken bolt action stocks I've seen, fail right at the guard screw....So....why would one further weaken that location by drilling out more wood.

Not so?

I've never used pillars, saw no need for them.

Dave

Do you have the same concern with the stock screw bushing on Mauser actions?

Maybe..to a degree, However those bushings are far smaller diameter than the typical 1/2" material used for pillars.

But, I don't use those either.

Over the years I have had a lot of rifles land in this shop for one thing or another. Many of these I built by myself that had been returned for a serious cleaning, to be re-barreled or some other request. Others were made by very talented craftsmen and had the front and rear guard screw heads laboriously contoured and fit seamlessly with the contour of the surrounding trigger bow and top of the guard ahead of the floor-plate. Newly finished these screw slots ran north and south. When 1st completed they always look great.

If the owner uses the rifle at all at some point will be tempted to make sure the guard screws on his rifle are tight, not snug, but in the words of Brian Bingham "farmer tight". This is usually done with an undersized screw driver blade that is to short to adequately support the high side of the screw slot on the muzzle side of the screw head.

The slot soon becomes distorted and the razor edges of the screw head are now out of time north and south. The front guard screw also suffers the same fate. Turn these enough and when fired or carried enough you can leave some skin and blood around the screws heads. Self inflicted but never done in malice.

Then there's the compression of wood under the metal. Not all wood is really dense, none of if dense enough to handle the abuse of over-tightening a 1/4-22 screw between the bow and tang for years. A prime example is the rear tang on a 98, you can turn it into quite a spring board. Bend that rear tang enough and it will begin the effect your trigger pull if you're using a retro fit Recknagel, Swift/Blackburn, etc. If you don't think so take your favorite 98 and loosen the rear guard screw as you watch the rear tang, this might surprise you. What I think feels "snug" may seem loose to the new owner. A torque screw driver solves this question and these are now available all over the market.

This same wood compression can be seen around the front of the floor-plate tongue end of the assembly. Any FN style or early Blackburn 98 assembly allows very little wood supporting the leading edge of the assembly around the 12mm boss the screw goes through. Crank that front screw down to supper tight to many times and your crushing the wood and sucking the assembly deeper into the stock. Don't believe me, fine carry on.

I know this because I've done it far to many times earlier in my career. Duane is right the wood around the pillar can shrink away from the pillar over time but how much shrinkage, over how much time and when using modern wood sealants ? The remaining surface area of the stock for and aft of the pillar is still supporting the barreled action or bottom metal if its inletted or glassed properly. Re-read the last part of that sentence as pillar installation like anything else is not a cure all if done incorrectly.

Do pillars weaken the stock in that area ? that is a great question ? Possibly but the only stock I have ever had break was a Legend Stock made with a Carbon fiber shell and it broke in half through the bolt notch when the client fell on it during a sheep hunt. To date I have never had a Walnut stocked rifle break and like the Carbon fiber version the weakest place created on bolt rifle stock is the area removed for the bolt handle in my opinion. The loss of structual material between the bolt notch cavity and the trigger assembly mortise is significant.

You want those nicely contoured screw heads to remain seamless surrounded by that bottom metal pointing north and south and prevent tang flex for a damn long time you might want to consider a pillar. They don't need to be 1/2", you want then smaller ? be my guest and turn them down. Steel, Aluminum, Titanium or Phenolic These are simple to install and do serve a purpose. Not being overly concerned with tradition I have used Halfmoon Socket Head screws on all my Classics for 30 years. In years to come these will also become traditional.

Socket head..Times have changed and I certainly agree that they are really a far better mechanical choice than slots. Tork head may be even better.

Haven't had the stones to use them on a full blown custom, however...…..YET!

I probably overthink situations: In the most remote Tanzanian village, you will round up a plain screwdriver if you REALLY have to disassemble a rifle. Yes, you should have tools or the PH should. But.....

Im a firm beliver in torx screws, they hold..and in a pinch they can work with a regular screwdriver, but will perhaps ruin the torx in question, but a little L shaped torx driver that come with Talley mounts and bases it easy to pack around..The screws are not that espensive,so carry a few spares and a torx driver of sorts..

quote:

Tork head may be even better.

Does some enterprising soul make Tork/Torx trigger guard screws?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Tork head may be even better.

—————————-

In the most remote Tanzanian village, you will round up a plain screwdriver if you REALLY have to disassemble a rifle.

Maybe a slotted torx would be the best of both worlds? They are just a torx with a slot cut through two of the six points so that you can use a torx bit or a flat blade.

Torex screws are harder than a whores heart. The wrench usually fails first.

Dave

Indeed there would be a supply issue with Torx...Not sure I'd like the appearance anyway. I have seen slotted hex...that doesn't look too cool either. But if you want suspenders AND a belt...why not

Darcy, does Half Moon still make socket head screws? If so, where can I find them? I had two or three sets a long time ago, but subsequent attempts to buy more have been unsuccessful. I think I bought what I have direct from Jim.

As Jim have passed away I'm not sure if his nephew Michael will pick up making the guard screws again or not. I bought well over 100 sets of Model 70's from him years ago and are about out of my 98 stash. He even made me some extended versions for 98 drop magazines and a few sets for the Burgess 3UE Enfield's.

There is another party I know of that is at this minute in a position to step into that market and currently working on some prototypes and has the CNC capacity to do so. What I'm not sure if he sees a viable market for any 98's or Mod-70's for that matter. To make a run you need to have the numbers but you never know.

Prechtl Mauser displayed some Torx heads 98's guard screws at an SCI convention 5 years or so ago that were very well made as one might expect. I ordered some on the spot and have yet to see them despite some prodding.

No matter what head cavity style you elect to use you still have to be damn careful not to over tighten them. Again this is where a set of pillars can come into play.

Michael Ullman makes hex head guard screws for the Mauser 98.

Never really cared for the look of Torx bolts or screws.

Now, if Hartmann and Weiss put them on their rifles I might give it another thought, but probably not.

I love torx screws for locking down scope bases and for scope rings, but not for holding a nice rifle together, I still like a regular screw slot, but one that's on the thin side for looks. I also like tapered threads that dont shoot loose, but that's a custom made job.

quote:

...

No matter what head cavity style you elect to use you still have to be damn careful not to over tighten them. Again this is where a set of pillars can come into play.

Any merit to the idea of using aluminum arrow shafting for pillars vs the normal ~1/2" OD style?

I'd say there's merit in using smaller diameter pillars in a wood stock. Like Duane mentioned earlier, that tends to be a weak spot so why weaken it more by removing 1/2" of wood. I run 1/2" pillars in composite stocks and 3/8" in wood stocks.

MNR...that makes sense! Can 't see anyone crushing a 3/8 pillar

I have, since 1976, cast fiberglass (acraglas with glass fiber fill) pillars for most bedding jobs I have done. I prefer this over any metal pillar. It is slightly resilient and there is one bonding boundary, glass to wood, instead of two; wood to glass to metal. Regards, Bill

Wouldn't accurglas have about the same "give" as most walnut?

Probably about the same as end grain but certainly much less than across the grain. In addition, glass springs back while crushed wood cells do not. When doing a precision rifle, I would cast the pillars then bed to minimize the effects of shrinkage of the material (there is some).
I've used aluminum and steel pillars as well and still do on occasion but, mostly, I prefer to do the glass. Regards, Bill

Glass with steel mixture is tougher than end grain wood by a bunch, and all wood can shrink and swell to one degree or another, and it doesn't take much to start a split...The major problem with wood is a poor cure and layout and its more common than many seem to realize IMO..I can live with that as long as I do the inspections from time to time I hope, so far so good Ive never had a wood stock move my zero during a hunt..Glass bed factory wood from one end to the other, double cross bolt it, use a extra recoil lug about 3 or 4 inches in front of the front ring, go under and brace the tang with a threaded hidden screw..It would be smart to finish the wood in a gloss water proof finish, but Id prefer to have a satin finish and take my chances..Another precaution is to use the forend screw method for another recoil lug..If you do all these precautions your dG rifle should never fail you...

Up to a certain recoil level I see not need for glass or pillars if you use wood that's properly cured and laid out and properly inletted isn't absolutely needed, but therein lies the problem, what has been the life cycle of the wood you chose..

A big bore rifle IMO needs all the help it an get and that's pillers, glass, extra recoil lug, I like steel bed also..Inasmuch as most bolt action big bores are Mausers and Mausers only need glass as they come piller bedded in front and the rear should have a steel insert that serves as a piller..On med bores you can bed the wood and use a paint coat of glass or just be sure and finish the inside about as good as the outside..Every action has its own method of glass bedding that's works best, not just filling a void and slopping it full of glass and metal..

It just isn't cut and dried IMO. you have vialble options that work.