I'm sure everyone here has probably seen the bolt action Mauser on the Wesley Richards Custom Rifle page. It has a very dark stock. What kind of dye, if any is used to get that color? I know there are a lot of discussions about red and orange dyes, but that one comes across as too dark to be natural. Or, is it just some dark piece of walnut? I have rifles with all kinds of stock from blonde to reds. I like brunettes too.

Haven't seen that particular rifle but as you may well know walnut comes in many "colors". I have a semi-inletted one that is very dark - almost dark chocolate with red & orange high-lites and a feather - crotch?, at least that's what I call it.
Of course one could dye a light piece but why? ---John

I think it is called stain...

It's called alkanet root.

The Westley Richards rifle's stock you mentioned is dark but within the range of color variation for European walnut. Can't tell from the photo if it was stained but it was not necessarily darkened more than its natural color. Wood that dark is rare but does exist.

Alkanet root is red and quite distinctive--other stains would darken without the pronounced red effect.

We all have our color preferences. To me, the light wood ("blond")is not nearly as attractive as dark wood regardless of the grain pattern or figure. In fact, I've seldom seen a stock that I thought was too dark. Your mileage may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think it is called stain...

Stains and dyes are different things. Read this: Stain vs Dye

I agree it is probably not alkanet root. Most of the discussions I see regard the red tones. That one just appeared so dark that I questioned if it had been dyed. If you look at some of the color charts there are quite a number of available dyes and I wondered what dye or combination might render that dark of look.

It's a British rifle. I know where and by whom many are made these days (the bolters, I mean). It's called alkanet root. Do with my input as you please.

you can use gunstock stain, or leather dye on wood for that matter...Alkanet root can be very subtle if properly used or blood red if you prefer..I'd have to see the gun in question to answer that one..

I have a blank that I have been saving for years, it's more black than chocolat with a purpalish hue, and lots of grain and figure and marble cake, laid out properly and dry and hard as woodpecker lips..It is destined to go on a 7x57 that Im building for myself..Most of my rifles are pretty rough and had very hard use. Most are referred to as Stainless steel and exhibition driftwood, but they were blue and nice walnut some centuries back!

Use nice wood and you don't need stain---

IMHO

Bye the way, thanks Ray for the two nice russian blanks-still have one.

your welcome Sean, still have a couple of those in exhibition grade I guess....

I very seldom use stain, and only then mixed with finish to add a touch of red with Alkanet Root, its just normally not needed on good wood, The Europeans used it to cover up plain wood, and it's nice for that. Alkanet root also has a nostalgic nature to many, self included in rare cases....

Here is the photo of the WR standard. I like the dark stock but question if it is natural.

I have never had a stock that dark or worked with a piece of walnut that finished that dark either. jvw375 says it is indeed alkanet root. I don't know but will defer to those with more knowledge. If it is finished with alkanet root I would like to know how to mix the dye to get that effect. If, on the other hand it is an expensive piece of dark walnut, I would like to know how to mix the dye to get that effect.

I'm quite anti stain, but sometimes it's a must. As far as the very dark stock shown by MH, I've admired the pic. of that rifle a few times. I have in my wood bin two that I believe would come out as dark when finished (no stain) both pre turned black walnut blanks, one inletted and one not, both are about 50 years old. One is what I believe called "stump" figure and the other sort of "feather" figure. --- John

I do not know if this gunstock is the same one. As the USA stocker on record for The WR Agency 1997-2004, I was asked to refresh the finish on a similar rifle of the same caliber. That stock was as dark as the one pictured. The finish used was proprietary Westley Richards sent over from England. It was reddish in color but I do not know for sure it had Alkanet root added. I just assumed it did.

Dietrich Apel once told me to just use a red dye/stain and forget about the root. Too inconsistant, not worth the time of discovery and just does not color as well on walnut grown on the North American continent.

quote:

If it is finished with alkanet root I would like to know how to mix the dye to get that effect

Duane Wiebe discusses alkenet root ratios in the Gunsmithing Tips section on his website, http://customgunandrifle.com/g...tips/stock-finishing

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:


Here is the photo of the WR standard. I like the dark stock but question if it is natural.

Another thing to consider is the color might be enhanced with PhotoShop.

I guess I just like nice wood. The WR above has the darkest stock I've ever seen and it's lovely.

In contrast I love the wood on my project 17 HMR that I chronicled here witth it's buttery orange and contrasting black.

That WR could come live here if it wanted to.

I've had several of my custom knives with handles finished exactly like this(wish I had pics).Much of the woods I use come from cutoff scraps from custom firearm stocks so I use the same finishing techniques as custom stockers. Looking at that stock, to me, looks like an alkenet root stain was used 3 to 4 layer, and then a really dark, almost black, thinned wash of dye was used in stages, then, the oil finish enhanced the contrast. I think I used Fiebings black leather dye cut back.

Dressel's often has English blanks that have so much mineral streaking they are almost black.

Its not alkanet per se but I know one of my customers who buys my alkanet likes to take it and mix walnut stain to get a hybrid kind of color that his customers like too just a very small amount. Although I think this stock is lovely I would always be afraid of what I was hiding. Real alkanet doesn't hide it accentuates what is already there which is the beauty of it. Every piece of wood has its own personality and ALWAYS responds differently to alkanet. We are all assuming this is walnut but I've seen exotics that have great beauty too.

As above, the value of alkenet is that it does not "paint" on a color. When used with oil or sealer, enough penetration can be achieved that some touch up can be done without worry of a blotchy affect. And..it does not fade

In reference to what Duane said regarding stains and "blotchy" this is the big risk and a bad dream when you do it. When a stain hits an area of porosity it can fill the whole area with stain and stain alone. The other problem with this bad dream is this porosity takes the stain deep so recovering from this just draws you deeper into hell. If there is any question you can take zinnser wax free shellac cut it 50% with denatured alcohol and apply this before stain. This will help allow the wood to accept stain but mitigates some of the porosity to have a more even finish.

When alkanet (if I can figure out how to post a picture) encounters porosity, as in the piece I hope to show you. It will populate the individual pores with subtle color which gives frequently blond porosity life. Like on the lower 1/2 of this buttstockhttp://i1064.photobucket.com/a...4367_zps1jrviik7.jpg

Doug, I don't think it is any more than just a really dark, black piece of English walnut. Maybe the lighting contributes to the look as well.
These three would look similar, I got them from Roger Vardy.
Regards,
Metal.

G'Day Fella's,

Magnum Hunter 1, The thing you need to realise is, most traditionally finished stocks (London Oil Finish), will become darker with use and age.
So, best not to stain the stock to dark initially, as you may very well lose any contrasting colour and grain, over time?

I seen this on a WR QE-II Coronation rifle, that went thru my dealer books. The only way you could enjoy the grain and figure of the stock, was in bright sun light!

Hope that helps

Merry Christmas
Homer

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
As above, the value of alkenet
..it does not fade

This rifle was finished with Alkenet but I was supprised how much it faded (pleasantly surprised).

Wow..that really seems to have FADED... like the farmer whose horse died..."Never saw him do that before"
Dave Wesbrook could probably weigh in on this, but acids can impart a black that is permanent (Must be neutralized after)

OZ, your photos are interesting, but obviously have different exposure values. I have never been able to get alkenet root alone with that vivid a red color. Sure there's not some other dye involved? This apparent fading would make perfect sense with aniline

Here are some blank photos of naturally dark walnut that would produce stocks the same as the WR discussed in this thread, for more blanks similar in colour visit and look at the exhibition rifle section page 1, 2 and 3: http://www.rogervardystockwood.com/products

The natural colours in the walnut is based on the GENETIC differences between the trees themselves NOT 'mineral lines.' It is all based on Genetics.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:


Here is the photo of the WR standard. I like the dark stock but question if it is natural.

There have been many nights I have fallen asleep with this rifle dancing in my head.

Metal,
Love that stock pic. I hope you will post some photos when you finish it.
BaxterB,
That is one of my favorite rifles also. Would love to have one or build one like it.
I've been playing with some of the Transfast dyes recently, Antique Red Walnut and Java, and they are very promising. Used them to color a walnut stock and the color came out much like I wanted.

Dennis, how are you this. Just spent 9 month in surgery and out for a failed Lt. total knee. I think the infection is gone finally! I will get new knee sometime early Feb. and with rehab I might be able to drive up to see my grand kids and family in the Seattle basin. Then take the coastal route to Oregon to visit you for a while. You owe m?e a couple of rework jobs from SCI/ACGG Banquette.Would you mind if i come vy fir a visit.

Hey Leonard, will be in Dallas on Jan 4-8 at the Dallas Safari Club/ACGG Exhibition. Closer to you and sooner to see you. Bring yourself and meet the new gang at the Guild. Still some old guys such as myself but there are new up and coming people too. We can discuss your needs then. Yes, visiting my shop is an option too.

I am the Project Director for the 2017 DSC/ACGG Presidents Rifle. It came out really great. Thanks must be given to all who participated. A special thanks to Duane Weibe for his professional skill and donation of the bottom metal to make it possible. Cal 416 Rem Mag. Had 17 different ACGG members contribute materials or labor to complete. Needed industry individuals to help too. Has a MTAC 1x6 Burris scope on it that is one of the finest dangerous game glass I have viewed in my career. Very fast orientation and easy to use for this purpose. Rifle photos are posted on the ACGG Facebook page.

Dennis Earl Smith

quote:

Originally posted by Magnum Hunter1:


Here is the photo of the WR standard. I like the dark stock but question if it is natural.

Anyway this could be nothing more than poor lighting? Metal doesn't look exactly right either.

As to the stock pictured I don't believe it has been finished in Alkanet root as it has no reddish hues, even on brownish wood Ive seen reddish tones with Alkanet use, especially in the the lighter background base...It could have been stained with Jensen violet horse linement that's made from walnut juice so Ive been told and Ive used it to good advantage in the past. but I think its just the wood itself and it has been well executed.

As to that color of stock wood, its indeed rare, but I have a blank very much like that but perhaps darker that I have rat holed for years. It's destined to become a G33-40 action, Lothar Walthar barrel, with all the bells and whistles in a fwt. 7x57..It will be for me, and will probably be the last stock I whittle. The plan is to work with Jack Belk doing the metal and that's near completion. I will do the stock, and we will both sign it as such. I want it to be a special rifle, and a family rifle.

Lighting is a key question. But, you can vary the absorption level of stains by "spit coating" the wood prior to staining. This involves partially sealing the pores with a sanding sealer. Then sanding. The stain the "takes" to porous areas and is resisted by less porous areas. The result is a pronounced veining of colors. Deep ebony alcohol stains will produce this effect.