Over the years, most custom rifles I've had shoot acceptable accuracy, but I have one now that ain't working out well.

With factory rifles that don't prove accuracy, I know just what to do - get rid of them. But this one ought to shoot accurately.

I don't even know where to start asking for advice.

I'm thinking of having it rebedded. I just can't accept that it will not shoot accurately. Something has to be causing it, and fixable, but I am simply at a point of guessing what it may be.

Any thoughts?

It's a CZ 550 action that's been trued, and the trigger is nice and crisp, especially the set feature.

The barrel is a PacNor, 10" twist, 8mm, 23", chambered in 323 Hollis. I'm using Norma Brass and Redding dies. I've tried H4831 and H4350, and Sierra, Hornady, and Remington 220gr, and Nosler 200gr PT. I can't get better than about 3" to 4" at 100 yds.

It has a factory walnut stock that's been bedded, by a gunsmith.

I'm using a Leupold scope and rings.

This is just not acceptable.

What to do or try next is the question.

KB

Try a different set of mounts and rings and shoot it at 50 yards to eliminate the mounts, rings or scope being a problem.

How much not accurate? Is it grouping at all? Like 2 close together and then a flyer? Vertical dispersion but a relatively tight horizontal or the reverse?

The groups seem random in dispersion - not horizontal or vertical tending, just spread. Of course sometimes two shots will hit close together, but I think it's just random.

KB

I wonder with a chambering like that if there are accurate load recipes available or easy to find.

Suggestions:

Borescope examination by someone experienced. (1st time will scare you to death, grin)
THOROUGH cleaning with break-in procedure, to include electrolysis if necessary
Fire-lapping with jacketed bullets
Tension pad between barrel and forearm
'Ladder' group shooting with different charges at long range

The above will cost very little. If none of them works, then IIWY I'd think about the craftsmen involved and the quality of their work. In that case (if none of the above works) then I'd pull the barrel to check things, and pillar-bed it when reassembling.
Regards, Joe

Is the barrel copper fouling bad? Most good quality barrels will settle down after 25-50 shots if not sooner. Pacnor's are usually pretty good.

First thing I would do is clean the bore real well if not done already. Then try a different, known good scope and mounts, if available.

Action screws tight (~60 in-lb)?

Before glass bedding I would remove all the action screws then reinstall the one under the recoil lug and tighten and look to see if the action or barrel is flexing. Then try the same with the rear screw. If the bedding seems OK then try a slight shim under the end of the barrel, then free float it if that does nothing.
I would also try seating the bullets out till they engaged the lands then back them off just a hair.

Finally, scopes do go bad. Try the scope on another rifle to see what happens.

I know I'm just an old redneck and a simple person...did by chance the crown get dinged up?
I know it a simple thing but it happened to me and I couldn't believe I wasted alot of powder trying to get the damn thing to shoot.

Play with the seating depth.

OK guys, thanks for the suggestions.

I'll make a list and try them all.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by gzig5:
Is the barrel copper fouling bad? Most good quality barrels will settle down after 25-50 shots if not sooner. Pacnor's are usually pretty good.

First thing I would do is clean the bore real well if not done already. Then try a different, known good scope and mounts, if available.

Action screws tight (~60 in-lb)?

I have had some spectacularly good results with PacNor barrels in the past. They all have been good shooters so far, which is why I think it's not the barrel. This one cleans about as easy as any I've had. So far I've shot it about 50 rounds.

I'll change the scope and rings and see if it makes a difference.

And I'll check the action screws again. I may try a shim under the barrel at the forend tip and see what happens.

I also have some 200 gr Sierra match bullets, so I think I'll go to them, and neck size.

Re finding a load - I've been looking at the load data for the 308 Norma and 338 WM to see which powders are listed for both. So far I've stayed with H4831 and H4350.

I haven't yet worked up to where pressure signs indicate that it's slightly too much. I was hoping to find an accurate load that is obviously under max and just use it, and leave the question of max load unanswered.

Try how it performs with the Sierra 175grs, that bullet seems to be pretty accurate with 1.10 323 barrels. I use VW N150 and N160 powders.

M

Yes, I'll also try some 175 gr Sierras. They have been very good bullets in my 8x57. I also go some good accuracy with the Hornady 195gr in the 8x57. So, I have a lot of bullets to work with. Hopefully some bullet will produce an accurate load. If I can just get one good load, then it's just a matter of time till I can find another.

The gunsmith already said he would help me figure it out. It's an option to send it back for rebedding.

The more I shoot the CZ 550 medium actions, the better I like them.

KB

KB -

All kinds of things can produce inaccuracy as you already know. I'll just remind you of a few, if you don't mind.


One of the first is the style of bedding. Some barreled actions need to have their barrels free-floated, others need a pressure point or two along the way. You say a gunsmith bedded it. Do you know HOW he bedded it? Have you had the barreled action out of the stock to inspect the bedding of both the barrel channel and the action/recoil lug?

If the barrel is suppossedly free-floated, have you checked to see if that is actually the case, by sliding something about as thick as two or three playing cards down the length of the barrel, between the barrel and stock? (a dollar bill is not a sufficient check for free-float, as the barrel itself bends and expands/contracts while the bullet passes through it. so though it may free-float enough to allow a dollar bill to pass between the barrel and stock when at rest, it may not be floated enough to let it pass when the bullet is actually travelling through it.

Is the bottom of the recoil lug recess free of debris, so when the barreled action is tightened into the stock it isn't resting the recoil lug on top of a chunk of glass bedding debris or a wood chip, or something else which can move under recoil?

If it IS free floated, have you tried using a piece or two of tablet backing (the cardboard which is the back of a school writing tablet, or legal pad) to create a pressure point about an inch back from the end of the barrel/stock? I would make the piece of tablet about 1.5 or 2.0" long, to make sure I "damped" the bedding point which needs damping.) I often use a similar square of rubber heavy truck inner tube for the same testing purpose. (But I admit I don't know if truck tires still use inner tubes at all...mine is all many years old.)

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Another real possibility is that the barrel doesn't like the length(s) of bullets you are using, for whatever reasons. If you are using heavy (long) bullets, try some much lighter ones. And obviously, if you are already using light (short) bullets, try some much heavier (longer) ones.

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Then, of course, there is your scope. Have you tried at least three different ones on the rifle? You could have two "bad" ones, but it is not likely you will try three bad ones consecutively. The odds are firmly against that.

The Hollis wildcat, as I recall, is a fairly brisk bullet mover. Scopes which don't show problems with light-recoiling cartridges may show or develop problems with the increased recoil.

And don't forget, the problem may not be the scope itself, but in the mounts...try at least two different mounts if you need to get that far.

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And, of course, ALL the screws in the rifle which hold anything to anything else need to be snug, plus a little tiny bit. Not action-bending tight, or scope-mount-bending tight, but tight enough to prevent movement from one resting contact point to another during the shooting of consecutive shots.

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So that's enough for a month of testing.

There's a lot more which could be the problem, but no need to go there until the above are all tested and proved either of value or otherwise.

Good luck. I know you have been looking forward to that rifle for a while, and I hope you can quickly and easily get it to work for you.

Well, it will keep me off the street corners for a while.

KB

It is hard to make a modern rifle shoot that poorly. Make sure it is really a 1-10 twist. I had a problem a few years ago with a major barrel maker on two barrels, and they stress relieved them and both came into less than one MOA. I am sure you will find the answer as pac nor barrels are good and you are using good bullets; bedding, as suggested, should be checked too.

I would suspect the scope itself. About 3 years ago my scope went bad on my 7mm-08. It went from being a .25 moa shooter to shotgun looking groups at 100yds. The next thing I would look at is the barrel itself. The reamer could have been crap and messed up the chamber or something with the rifling.

I'm pretty sure the chamber is OK. The reamer was like new. I sent it back to PTG for inspection and sharpening if necessary, because the first attempt at chambering, on another barrel blank, didn't work out. So for practical purposes, PacNor was using a new reamer fresh from PTG.

I had a .308 that would shoot sporadically. I could have 3 shots at 100 yards in a small clover less than 3/4" and then throw the 4th an inch away. I could have 5 shots in an inch then not be able to keep 5 in 3 inches.

Totally random and every time I would give up hope I would get a neat, tight, good group.

I first replaced the scope. That helped greatly. Then I replaced the scope mounts. That helped. I opened up the bedding slightly in the barrel channel, that helped a little. Better, tighter, more consistent, but still the occasional flier.

This is with all manner of procedures, ie one shot, 5 min, one shot, 5 min, shooting at leisure, hot, cold, clean bore, fouled bore, factory ammo, 30 combinations of reloads, etc.

Working on it still, getting into mechanically rebuilding it. I hope to have it rebuilt by spring to try and see what type of nice groups I can get.

Don't give up hope, you'll get there.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The reamer was like new. I sent it back to PTG for inspection and sharpening if necessary, because the first attempt at chambering, on another barrel blank, didn't work out.

Can you expand upon this?
Regards, Joe

Have the cases been fired in another rifle? This could deform cases to the point that they will not recover from resizing.

You have gotten a lot of good suggestions. I give one more to try. I have a 325 WSM that shot just about the same way as your's with everything I tried. I noticed when seating bullets that they didn't seem to have the same neck tension. I made a neck sizing bushing for my die and tighened the neck up a little bit. The gun started shooting 3/4 inch groups right away. This is the last thing I thought might be the problem.

Sam

Have you tried switching scopes, on the off chance that you,ve got a reticle problem? Unlikely, but all things mechanical can break...
Other than that, back to the crown getting a small ding.. Good luck, whatever it is.

I had a 338 WM shooting like that one time. It wound up being the rings. Lapping the rings cured it but I was pulling my hair out till I discovered the problem. On a 300 mag that wasn't grouping it wound up being the scope. I just set-up a 7 mag that didn't group well initially with 4350 or 4831, when I went to RL-22 everything was fine. If bedded in wood I would suggest pillar bedding also. Could be the crown, or any number of other problems.

It's things like this with rifles that keep it a challenge. Sometimes they are easy, sometimes not.

I surely appreciate all the great suggestions. I didn't expect such good response. It is encouragement to take my time and seek out the solution to this one. After all, I have several years in it just waiting to get to the point I can shoot it. The bummer about this rifle is that I shot it with the original 7mm Mag barrel, and it was accurate. Now it's wearing a different barrel and different stock.

I've been having such good luck with all the CZ 550s that I've shot. So far they have all been accurate and easy to sight in, until I got to this one. Some of them are so good with the first ammo tried that I just sighted in, and left them that way ever since.

I have one other with a custom barrel - PacNor - in 35 Whelen and it is that way - so accurate that the first handloads I tried are the ones I'm still using.

I bought one older CZ 550 in 270 simply because the price was so right. It was beat up a little, and the stock was glass bedded by someone who obviously wasn't a professional. It was very accurate. So I gave it to my hunting buddy from Texas. He set it aside for about a year, and just lately started hunting with it. Now it appears to be his main hunting rifle. he got an elk with it in Wyoming this year. And it's still accurate. He told me he could get two inch groups at 200 yds with it. Sometimes it's just a matter of luck.

All I did to the rifle was buy a set of bases and rings, and put a scope on it. The receiver is one of the old style that isn't milled to accept rings, but requires bases to be attached instead. I think it's called the Minnisota Model.

KB

Last night I switched scopes and loaded some ammo.

My shellholder came in for the Wilson trimmer.

I got to the range this morning and tried some 175 gr Sierras. The groups were much better.

The load with 71grs of H4350 shot very well - consistant 5 shot group.

There's hope.

I figured the 10" twist would be fine for the heavy 220gr bullets but apparently it likes the lighter weights better.

I'm thinking of ordering some Barnes 180gr. I would rather have a bullet that holds together for this rifle. I suspect the 175gr Sierra will be explosive on game at under 100 yds.

KB

Went to the range today and tested some 200 gr match kings with 70, 71, and 72 grs of H4350.

All were accurate, and none showed excessive pressure. These are 100 yd groups.

One thing that cause me concern is the first group, which is four shots, using the 70gr load. Notice the three clustered together and the one high. That's the first shot, cold and clean barrel.

That's not good. I'm not sure what the deal is with that, so I'll have to repeat the test.

All the other groups were warm barrel, three shots, and I didn't clean between shots, nor wait long between shots.

Here's a picture of the rifle:

I had a similar problem with a 300wm I have. No matter the combination I tried i could not get it to shoot 180gr or heavier bullets. In order to compensate I went with the barnes 168gr TTSX. It shoots a ragged bullet hole and the bullet is tough enough for whatever i want to shoot it at. My velocity is screaming fast and I still have room to go before I hit max load. Barnes makes a 160gr 8mm TTSX that might be just the ticket for your dilemna. It may only weigh 160 but with the velocity you will get and the controlled expansion and toughness of the bullet it will handle any critter in AK just fine.

Just for a test take your rifle out and shoot one shot. Take your rifle and target back to the house. Repeat this each day for the total number of shots you want, say five. The target will shot you where you cold barrel (and fouled I might add) will shot it's first shot.

Unfortunately, my days at the range and loading bench are over for this year. I'm moving, so I started boxing stuff up last weekend, starting with the reloading bench.

The last loads I tried were some 180gr Barnes TSX and H4350, which showed some good results. I made notes so I'll know where to start next spring. I think seating depth is the next thing to experiment with. It seemed like 72grs of H4350 produced the best results with the first batch.

KB

Rebarrel it to .223 then you'll finally have a real gun.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Rebarrel it to .223 then you'll finally have a real gun.

Although it's TV BS reality show on the last show of the season of Yukon Men the boy shot a troublesome grizzly with an AR15. Supplied meat for the winter. Reckon the 223 can't be all that bad.

Yukon Men/boy - whatever, it takes a special combo of crazy and tough to shoot a grizzly with a 223, and then to call it meat for the winter.

I would even bother carrying such a pop gun, and I won't eat grizzly meat. I knew a guy who tried once, and he said it was aweful.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Yukon Men/boy - whatever, it takes a special combo of crazy and tough to shoot a grizzly with a 223, and then to call it meat for the winter.

I would even bother carrying such a pop gun, and I won't eat grizzly meat. I knew a guy who tried once, and he said it was aweful.

KB

They don't have much choice for food. They fish for salmon when in season. Lots of them are or have Native American blood and have different hunting rights from what I've heard. I heard that many of them are in the National Guard thus the like for an AR15 and they probably get ammo benefits. Although called Yukon Men they are in Alaska. Town of Tannan (spelling) or something like that. Remember they weren't talking about a 10 foot grizzly weighing over 1000 lbs, it was a smaller grizzly. Also don't forget some mighty big animals have been killed with the 5.6x15R. I never said the AR15 was the choice caliber to hunt bear with, but those folks up there got to do what they got to do.

Snowbirdin it, Kabluey, or a permanent move?

Urban legend has it that for many years the world's record grizzly skull was one taken by an 11-year-old girl with a 22 Short. Apparently she and her younger sister had fallen asleep one afternoon and when they woke up the bear was passing by a few yards away and was not aware of them until too late.

I've seen this story repeated in a number of places over the years. Possible? Of course. True? Could be.

On a personal note, about half of my own ~50 head of big game were taken with various 22s, from std-vel LR to hot-loaded Swift.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Muttly:
Snowbirdin it, Kabluey, or a permanent move?

Whan I leave here, last week of December, my destination is Hoonah, AK to deliver more stuff, all loaded inside a 40' shipping container. At least it will all be in the same place then.

After that, I plan to just visit Georgia and/or Texas for a month - maybe two, hunting hogs, and figure out my next adventure. The plan is to be back in SE Alaska no later than the first of May, and work on my cabin in Hoonah all summer.

KB

Does,nt soud like a bad plan of attack. Good way to spend the winter.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:


After that, I plan to just visit Georgia and/or Texas for a month - maybe two, hunting hogs, and figure out my next adventure.

KB

K,

when you get your pea pickin' self down to Texas, let's hook up. We can pop a couple hill country hoglets. I've just the place. Maybe even toss back a toddy and discuss life and politics over a campfire.

Best

GWB