I like the wood 1885, and I like the pink Nesika target gun.

Guys like Chad Dixon in South Dakota can turn out a "custom" rifle that will shoot itty bitty groups, with whatever stock you want, painted however you want, and pretty much the sky is the limit.

He can also use his CNC machines to inlet a stock blank out of wood that fits you like a glove, and then oil finish it.

He can turn that fiberglass stocked gun out in less than a week. A wood stocked rifle will take about a month or two.

He doesn't make very many parts; bottom metal and comb adjuster. Everything he uses, can be bought from a Brownells, McMillan, or a barrel company.

Or you have guys like Satterlee also in Sturgis, that build everything.

Dogcat, go over to the barrio in east OkC during daylight hours, armed, /w an armed friend. You can get your suburban done to match the 'pretty' paint job.
If you want a 'custom' rifle, contact Jim Kobe.

Thanks for that!

Jim

quote:

If you want a 'custom' rifle, contact Jim Kobe.

Yes, and you'll get it well-finished, adjusted to feed and eject, it will be done in time, and it will be reasonably priced...a rarity these days.

I will vouch for Mr. Kobe also.

quote:

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen. I remember Biebs (I recall) had a pump shotgun for sale with skulls painted on the plastic stock. It was someone's idea of custom beauty but could make others vomit.

Being old fashioned I like wood and hand work. Many months ago I made a post about wood to metal fit and a gunsmith (who I forgot now and didn't know of then) commented that "any clown" can take a block of wood and sand paper and sand wood to the level of the metal. I thought it rather smug for a modern 'smith to refer to the makers of the finest double rifles of the vintage years as clowns for their precision. H probably won't be getting my Lang or Holland to work on anytime soon.

I appreciate all of your definitions and opinions. There is no "right" answer to my question but all thoughts are interesting to read. It is what makes AR great!

I guess custom is not mass production, regardless of the hand work and finish. (?)

Cheers, mates.

That's kind of out of context. You commented that modern gunmakers cant achieve the same wood to metal fit as gunmakers in the early 1900's which is absolutely false. You also commented how nice it was to see wood flush with the metal on your vintage guns. There are numerous gunmakers today achieving perfect fit, it's not impossible. You can't compare the average modern work to the best of yesteryear. You can compare the best today to the best of yesteryear. Sometimes the best in earlier times isn't the best in modern times. We,ll forget that with your comments you downed a number of extremely capable gunmakers alive today.

There are plenty of vintage guns with metal proud of the wood, that doesn't fit your narrative. I'm confident in saying that most(not all)wood will shrink overtime, however small that may be. Now if a vintage maker was to make the wood flush with the metal(tangs, action body, etc) it's safe to say after 100yrs of shrinking that the metal could be slightly proud. It takes skill to inlet the metal bits perfectly, any clown can then sand the wood to flush with the metal. It takes far more skill and care to leave the wood consistently proud(say .010"-.015") of the metal to account for future shrinking or future refinishing. I'll stick to that statement. I've gained that insight through my own hands on experience in the field, damned if it offends someone or not.

Btw I've got a 1910 Purdey in the shop now that is flush in some areas but has proud metal in other areas. I determine it to be in original condition.

It's fine if you don't want to send me your Lang or Holland. Others don't share your sentiments.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Dogcat, go over to the barrio in east OkC during daylight hours, armed, /w an armed friend. You can get your suburban done to match the 'pretty' paint job.
If you want a 'custom' rifle, contact Jim Kobe.

Now that is a good idea. I expect I could get that paint job there.

On Jim Kobe, he is one of the best and his work is superb for sure.

And, I have a "custom" from Maurice Ottmar in 1917 Argentine Mauser action, octagon barrel, deep blue finish, stunning wood and checkering to compliment the lines of the stock all in a .280 Rem... I like it a lot and value the work done on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:

quote:

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen. I remember Biebs (I recall) had a pump shotgun for sale with skulls painted on the plastic stock. It was someone's idea of custom beauty but could make others vomit.

Being old fashioned I like wood and hand work. Many months ago I made a post about wood to metal fit and a gunsmith (who I forgot now and didn't know of then) commented that "any clown" can take a block of wood and sand paper and sand wood to the level of the metal. I thought it rather smug for a modern 'smith to refer to the makers of the finest double rifles of the vintage years as clowns for their precision. H probably won't be getting my Lang or Holland to work on anytime soon.

I appreciate all of your definitions and opinions. There is no "right" answer to my question but all thoughts are interesting to read. It is what makes AR great!

I guess custom is not mass production, regardless of the hand work and finish. (?)

Cheers, mates.

That's kind of out of context. You commented that modern gunmakers cant achieve the same wood to metal fit as gunmakers in the early 1900's which is absolutely false. You also commented how nice it was to see wood flush with the metal on your vintage guns. There are numerous gunmakers today achieving perfect fit, it's not impossible. You can't compare the average modern work to the best of yesteryear. You can compare the best today to the best of yesteryear. Sometimes the best in earlier times isn't the best in modern times. We,ll forget that with your comments you downed a number of extremely capable gunmakers alive today.

There are plenty of vintage guns with metal proud of the wood, that doesn't fit your narrative. I'm confident in saying that most(not all)wood will shrink overtime, however small that may be. Now if a vintage maker was to make the wood flush with the metal(tangs, action body, etc) it's safe to say after 100yrs of shrinking that the metal could be slightly proud. It takes skill to inlet the metal bits perfectly, any clown can then sand the wood to flush with the metal. It takes far more skill and care to leave the wood consistently proud(say .010"-.015") of the metal to account for future shrinking or future refinishing. I'll stick to that statement. I've gained that insight through my own hands on experience in the field, damned if it offends someone or not.

Btw I've got a 1910 Purdey in the shop now that is flush in some areas but has proud metal in other areas. I determine it to be in original condition.

It's fine if you don't want to send me your Lang or Holland. Others don't share your sentiments.

Mr. Little:
Thanks for the memory refresh. I've never reheard of you or your gunsmithing skills prior to your "clown" comment a few months ago. You have my apology if I offended you or the "number of extremely capable" gunsmiths alive today. Since I don't know any of you, my post was not to be taken personally. It is opinion.

Of course, there are good 'smiths today. I think it also fair to state with the advent of computers, lasers, and modern machinery that many gunsmiths rely on these rather than hone the finest of skills that were the only choice in the Victorian and Edwardian eras. In fairness to the trade, it is also fair to state the expectations of the buying public have lessened. I am in Kansas now before my elk hunt in Idaho and I'm looking through old Guns and Ammo annuals of the 1960s. The custom rifles pictured therein show a different style of many on the "custom" rifles shown today. My computer availability is off and on, but if this conversation continues I will, when I return home, post pics from my files I've saved from AR on wood to metal fit. Many are an embarrassment. And, to clarify a bit, wood to metal fit does not just mean a "clown" sanding flush, it is also the absence of a gap between the wood and metal. Even in the mass produced Winchesters of the 1800s, the fit was far better than on rifles today.

Now, I certainly would not expected you to agree with what I write as that would be dumping on your profession and that of your colleagues. And, I am not a gunsmith--I don't even turn the screws on my doubles. But I do observe. I think it is fair to state the overall quality today is far less than of yesterday. This may be to a combination of skill, training, customer expectations, and cost of the finished product. But, IMHO, to call computer made metalwork mated to a plastic stock (or an ill fitting wood stock) and called ":custom," is a disservice to the true custom rifles of yesteryear (and those made today to the same standards).

If I insulted a number of good 'smiths today, the total number is far less than referring to all of the 'smiths at Holland, Lang, Rodda, Jeffery, WR, et.al., as clowns for their precision.

Again, my apologies for any offense.
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

And, to clarify a bit, wood to metal fit does not just mean a "clown" sanding flush, it is also the absence of a gap between the wood and metal. Even in the mass produced Winchesters of the 1800s, the fit was far better than on rifles today.

And that's where the confusion lies; speaking gunmaker-to-gunmaker when you mention proud wood you aren't referring to gaps in the inletting between wood and metal. My comment wasn't directed toward inletting, it was directed toward leaving wood proud or sanding it flush with the external surfaces of the metal. Obviously I don't advocate gaps in inletting. You are misunderstanding me when I used the word clown; I wasn't calling craftsman in early times clowns but I can see how what would.

I don't need pictures of inletting, I have seen perfect inletting on prewar guns and modern guns alike. I have also seen the poor inletting on guns of any age.

You can't compare a $5k-$10k modern "customs" workmanship to top tier workmanship in the past. The same amount of time hasn't been invested in the gun, nobody stays in business spending 600-1000 hrs building guns and selling them for $10k. Next time you're free compare a modern gun built by F.lli Rizzini, Fabbri, Peter V. Nelson, Hartmann & Weiss, Johan Fonzoj, Martin Hagn, or Dorleac & Dorleac to a vintage piece. The workmanship will be similar as will the time invested in the gun.

Does spending $15k on a vintage gun get you better quality than a $15k modern gun? Of course, but like I mentioned earlier that's not a fair comparison. Inflation, risings wages/living cost, higher production costs, higher taxes, and Many other things make sure of that. The quality you see in some vintage guns can and is achieved today, you just have to know where to look and realize it's going to cost more than you may be willing to spend.

You thoughts on the majority of gun buyers not valuing craftsmanship is a sad reality. I wished it weren't the case. Thankfully there are still a select few who value it and support the craftsman doing it.

Thank you for your reply, Aaron. I hope to meet you someday.
Cheers,
Cal

Not to be the devils advocate here, Aaron, but nothing less than 100% is required of a custom maker,. today or yesteryear. Top notch work cannot be accomplished with an eye on the clock.

The maker must either charge more or put in 60 hour weeks or a little of each.

While I love what I do, am fairly good at it and am always improving, and have a great bunch of customers and friends it's also a business venture. If it got to the point people weren't paying the costs to support me putting 100% into builds I think I would have to make it a hobby. No, my wife would make sure of it.

At shop rates,600-1000 hours would work out to $90,000 to 150,000 per rifle.... PLUS parts...
Just so I'm on the same page here, you offered to build rifles at $5000.00 per each,,how do you do that? Can I come and watch?...HAR!

Lessons learned in early business days. Thankfully nobody took me up on that offer. That said I'm pushing for a future as a manufacturer and not a custom gunsmith.

The 600-1000hr builds come from what I hear are invested in High end English double guns who's cost pass the six figure mark. Id hope nobody invested that much in a bolt gun, the money isn't there unless you're Viggo Ollson. That guy has it figured out!

Aaron,
You talk a good game but have never posted pictures of even one completed gun. Also, you have offered several half completed guns for sale. One wonders if your all talk and no show.

Your self proclaimed expertise claim is getting old.

I forgot that if it isn't posted on AR it didn't happen. I'll work on it.

quote:

Your self proclaimed expertise claim is getting old.

Do we need to make things personal?

Fully believing a .40S&W round was a potential dandy. And not finding Ruger chambering a Blackhawk for it. I had two pair of 9mm/.357 combo's.
Ordered a Green Mtn barrel, and turned it myself. Took it all to our local gunsmith Jack Bayuk, ordered a reamer and had him finish it up. Used the 9mm cylinder. Can't tell it from the other gun, nor apart from the .45 Colt with all three laying beside each other.

Man, that's a sweet shooter. All the blast and accuracy anyone could want without the nasty recoil. Sure glad I did it now. Turned out just as I expected it would.
Total cost besides the guns +- $425 new, was about $150.

I count this as a custom gun too.

George

Hi Cal,
Getting back to the original question, you're never going to get anyone to agree because of the subjectivity of the question. All mudslinging aside, custom is by degrees. One guy might think that the high dollar polished and engraved action with fitted barrel, handmade bottom metal, carved, steamed, fitted and hand checkered stock and high dollar sights, mounts, barrel bands, etc. fitted to his LOP, drop and cast off would be a custom. I would call that level bespoke. Even an off the shelf Sendero with an add on recoil pad, 20 moa base and a 4-14x50 NFX has been "customized" to a lesser degree. I guess my point is, whatever the customer is happy with and wants to call it.

Most of my customers are plumbers or carpenters or warehouse workers who are absolutely thrilled I took their old 700, knocked the rust off of it, inletted it into a semi-drop in Boyds stock and sent them on their way with a coat of DuraCoat and a new Burris scope. If that guy who just dropped an entire paycheck into his deer rifle wants to call that rifle a custom, who am I to argue. I just have to make it look good enough that his friend wants to bring HIS rifle in. That's where my pride as a 'smith comes in. While I am capable of doing bespoke work (no where on the level of Wiebe or Kobe or Wesbrook) I get a satisfaction seeing the guy that works his ass off for pennies come spend those hard earned pennies with me and not regret it. That's MY custom work.

................................................................... A custom is something build to the customers specifications! Case closed!

........................................................................No brag, just fact!

Study the link to the Bolinger rifle above.This says it all!

A custom rifle is any rifle which has been modified or built by a custom rifle builder according to the needs of the customer.

Google this title: Gunsmith - Wikipedia
Here's just one copy/paste from there.

Custom builder/designer[edit]

Builds guns to customer's specification, from raw materials and shelf parts. Gunsmiths specializing in custom areas can be called upon by professional target-shooters, avid sports shooters, or anyone that wants custom attributes added to their firearm to create highly accurate or custom looking firearms. A Custom Gunsmith also builds high-end firearms for hunters and shooters with needs and desires that cannot be served by standard catalogued firearms offered by gun manufacturers. They may work in partnership with engravers and other specialized artists to produce unique finishes and decorations not possible on regular mass-produced firearms. Some highly specialized Gunsmith's can complete all firearm modifications without anyone else in the industry helping them. This is likely the most highly skilled of gunsmiths, as they are required not only to have proficiency in the other areas of gunsmithing, but must also be well educated in firearm finishing and machining, in order to manufacture the individual components and even springs before assembly takes place.