Define a custom rifle

29 September 2016, 23:59

cal pappas

Gents:
What constitutes a custom rifle today?

I ask this as when I was a boy in the '60s I used to marvel at the custom rifles as seen in the annual publications such as G&A and Shooter's Bible. The finest of wood, beaded cheekpieces, ebony inlays or tips/caps, engraving, etc. The handwork was amazing.

Now it seems the rifle makers have a "custom shop" with very plain metal work that was done with a computer lathe and (many times) a plastic stock. What's custom about this? All state sub-moa groups but to me that is pointless as the average hunter can't shoot moa groups in a hunting situation.

So, mates, what is a true custom rifle in today's world and what has changed over the decades?
Cheers,
Cal

_______________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
www.CalPappas.com
www.CalPappas.blogspot.com
1994 Zimbabwe
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1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
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2003 South Africa
2003 Zimbabwe
2005 South Africa
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2006 Tanzania
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2007 Zimbabwe--vacation
2008 Zimbabwe
2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
2013 Australia
2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
2018 South Africa
2018 Zimbabwe--vacation
2019 South Africa
2019 Botswana
2019 Zimbabwe vacation
2021 South Africa
2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later)
______________________________

30 September 2016, 00:25

Joe Henderson

Custom is sort of an abused word like conservatism. It means a different thing to each person. It really depends on how much custom you can afford.

The "custom" from years ago was a little different than what is are popular today. Years pass and tastes change. Even the term sub MOA is used a little loosely. A sub MOA hunting rifle is not going to agg. what a sub MOA competition rifle will.

All of my rifles have been sub MOA at one time or another...

Joe

30 September 2016, 00:35

dpcd

Custom just means built to the customer's specifications. Nothing more. I cringe at the plastic and stainless steel contraptions that are built today, but the fact is that they are still "custom" because you can't buy them off the shelf, and the customer specified what he wanted.
Custom does not now mean only hand made; they are hand assembled from parts, machine made, to the customers wishes.

30 September 2016, 03:24

MJines

A custom rifle is one that is built more or less to your individual specifications that is generally worth about 25%-50% less than what you paid to have it built the moment you take delivery of it. It is a affliction that commonly affects a group of us that is called for other purposes in other contexts the "intellectual yet idiot" group.

30 September 2016, 04:43

dpcd

It's simple; if they are not totally factory original, then they are custom, in varying degrees. CustomIZED might be a better term.
We should put a percentage on them to avoid confusion. Or add to it.
But one factor is constant; you will lose money on them, regardless of how "custom" it is. Do not tell me about the one you bought in 1966 and made a million dollars from. That never happens to most.

30 September 2016, 08:13

mightymouse

In the old days, a "custom" rifle was one that likely started out as a military rifle (say a '98 Mauser or '03 Springfield), and that was then turned into a fine sporting rifle thru the attention of a good gun plumber. Plenty of metal work involved, plenty of stock work required.

Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle". Tastes change, albeit not necessarily for the better.

30 September 2016, 16:39

p dog shooter

quote:
CustomIZED might be a better term.

I would agree I hardly own a rifle that doesn't have some work done to them.

Triggers, bedding, some with new stocks and barrels.

A true custom to me is taking a bare action barreling, stocking it and what ever it takes to get her shooting to the owners specs.

Yes composite stainless rifles can be custom.

Along with those truly amazing works of art with the finest wood, engraving and finishes.

30 September 2016, 19:30

Mike Scott

If I spray paint an old shotgun it has been customized. Making a rifle beginning with blocks of raw steel is also custom. Most fall somewhere between.

30 September 2016, 19:46

butchloc

a beautiful handmade rifle that biebs has briefly and then sells

30 September 2016, 19:49

butchlambert

quote:
Originally posted by butchloc:
a beautiful handmade rifle that biebs has briefly and then sells

Yes sir, you are right!

30 September 2016, 20:12

shootaway

A custom rifle is an attempt at building the rifle that you think is best.

30 September 2016, 22:11

458Win

A custom rifle is the same thing as a trophy animal ( or wife for that matter) in that the definition is defined only by it's owner.

30 September 2016, 22:22

Wstrnhuntr

quote:
Originally posted by Macs B:
I'm not as generous as some when defining custom made.

For instance, assembling a pile of commercially available parts into a rifle is one method which will produce a "custom" rifle. I feel that falls short of the spirit and intent of the process.

Modifying existing rifles and actions into something more than they were is another means of producing what some would consider a "custom" rifle.

My opinion is that if the rifle in question would not have existed in any other form, that its existence is solely dependent on the fact it was made for someone and to their specific requirements, as stated before construction, then yes it is a custom rifle.

Now what do you call all of the other stuff out there? I have no idea. I own several sporterized model springfield -03 rifles. All have new stocks, triggers, barrels, etc. None are in my opinion custom.

I tend to agree with this assessment. A custom rifle is not "assembled", it is "constructed" by a skilled craftsman. Several rifles that I own I would not consider Customs. Sporterized I feel wold be a more accurate description.

01 October 2016, 00:47

lindy2

The variety of answers here seems to provide the answer to what the definition of a "custom" rifle is. Its subjective in the sense that it can mean whatever a person wants it to mean - all the way from adding an iron sight to a full blown conversion with fancy woods and a complete metal job.

01 October 2016, 02:13

srtrax

MJines..."Intellectual Idiots"

I love it, I'm going to put that to good use!

01 October 2016, 08:16

LongDistanceOperator

quote:
Originally posted by mightymouse:
...Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle"...

What if it's a really pretty color like metallic purple with flames?

I would do that with a varmint/hog rifle...but I do admire walnut and blue steel. Some of the traditional customs on here are just beautiful.

01 October 2016, 08:25

mightymouse

quote:
Originally posted by LongDistanceOperator:
quote:
Originally posted by mightymouse:
...Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle"...

What if it's a really pretty color like metallic purple with flames?

I would do that with a varmint/hog rifle...but I do admire walnut and blue steel. Some of the traditional customs on here are just beautiful.

I come from a hot-rodding background. Purple with flames is fine with me.

01 October 2016, 09:16

vicvanb

quote:
Originally posted by LongDistanceOperator:

OUCH! Rifles like this are painful for me to look at. I can barely stand to look at the ugliest rifle I've ever owned--a Savage LRPV in 204 Ruger (black stock+stainless metal) even though it's the most accurate rifle I own.

I'm too damn old to change my opinion at this point, so give me rust blued steel and walnut--based on a pre-64 Model 70 action with custom bottom metal. Ebony forend tip, no Monte Carlo thank you, flawless checkering with Jerry Fisher's Fleur De Lis with ribbon pattern, steel buttplate and grip cap, tasteful cheekpiece.

Too rigid?? No more so than my preference for Ford pickups!

01 October 2016, 16:13

Wstrnhuntr

quote:
Originally posted by lindy2:
The variety of answers here seems to provide the answer to what the definition of a "custom" rifle is. Its subjective in the sense that it can mean whatever a person wants it to mean - all the way from adding an iron sight to a full blown conversion with fancy woods and a complete metal job.

Clearly, one mans "Custom rifle" is another mans gag inducer..

01 October 2016, 20:11

Duckear

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas

All state sub-moa groups but to me that is pointless as the average hunter can't shoot moa groups in a hunting situation.
Cal

Rifles can never shoot better in the field than they do off the bench. And only accurate rifles are interesting.

01 October 2016, 20:41

butchlambert

quote:
Originally posted by LongDistanceOperator:
quote:
Originally posted by mightymouse:
...Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle"...

What if it's a really pretty color like metallic purple with flames?

I would do that with a varmint/hog rifle...but I do admire walnut and blue steel. Some of the traditional customs on here are just beautiful.

Looks like a Michael Kavanaugh paint job, our soon to be Lt. Commander swabbie.

01 October 2016, 20:57

cal pappas

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen. I remember Biebs (I recall) had a pump shotgun for sale with skulls painted on the plastic stock. It was someone's idea of custom beauty but could make others vomit.

Being old fashioned I like wood and hand work. Many months ago I made a post about wood to metal fit and a gunsmith (who I forgot now and didn't know of then) commented that "any clown" can take a block of wood and sand paper and sand wood to the level of the metal. I thought it rather smug for a modern 'smith to refer to the makers of the finest double rifles of the vintage years as clowns for their precision. H probably won't be getting my Lang or Holland to work on anytime soon.

I appreciate all of your definitions and opinions. There is no "right" answer to my question but all thoughts are interesting to read. It is what makes AR great!

I guess custom is not mass production, regardless of the hand work and finish. (?)

Cheers, mates.
Cal

01 October 2016, 21:16

butchlambert

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Thanks for your comments, gentlemen. I remember Biebs (I recall) had a pump shotgun for sale with skulls painted on the plastic stock. It was someone's idea of custom beauty but could make others vomit.

Being old fashioned I like wood and hand work. Many months ago I made a post about wood to metal fit and a gunsmith (who I forgot now and didn't know of then) commented that "any clown" can take a block of wood and sand paper and sand wood to the level of the metal. I thought it rather smug for a modern 'smith to refer to the makers of the finest double rifles of the vintage years as clowns for their precision. H probably won't be getting my Lang or Holland to work on anytime soon.

I appreciate all of your definitions and opinions. There is no "right" answer to my question but all thoughts are interesting to read. It is what makes AR great!

I guess custom is not mass production, regardless of the hand work and finish. (?)

Cheers, mates.
Cal

Cal, I agree. I've seen some of the hatchet jobs on stocks that were supposed to be nice.
I do have a Redwood, carbon fiber benchrest stock that has a Kavanaugh flame job on it. It is kinda like vehicles. When I had a wrecker service, they all had custom paint. My personal vehicles are very subtle.

01 October 2016, 22:37

cal pappas

I keep a photo file of the modern rifles I've seen on AR with real crappy wood to metal fit. I won't post them here as my intention is not to attack anyone's rifle, but the w-t-m fit on many would have been unacceptable for an old Winchester or a double rifle from the UK. I guess our standards are lessening.
Cal

01 October 2016, 23:22

458Win

Cal, I know we both share a passion for nice rifles but to extend this thread I have a question for you.
Which, if either, would you classify as a custom rifle . A simple, but perfectly executed bolt rifle like those done in 1920 by Rigby or a modern one by D'Arcy Echols, or a new and very accurate Ruger American with excellent engraving.

I would say both.

02 October 2016, 00:04

MARK H. YOUNG

A custom rifle to my way of thinking is the one that has been tweaked to my specifications. That might be a factory rifle with a different synthetic stock, trigger adjustment, bedding etc or at the other end of the spectrum a stock made from a nice blank, spendy barrel and worked over Mauser action.

Mark

02 October 2016, 02:46

waterrat

quote:
Originally posted by LongDistanceOperator:
quote:
Originally posted by mightymouse:
...Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle"...

What if it's a really pretty color like metallic purple with flames?

I would do that with a varmint/hog rifle...but I do admire walnut and blue steel. Some of the traditional customs on here are just beautiful.

02 October 2016, 06:50

dogcat

Cal,
I got into a discussion with one the gunmakers that posts here awhile back. We differed on "custom".

My position is that a gun made up of various parts of other guns or that are bought and aggregated is not a true custom. For instance, my Hill Country Rifle built on. Model 70 action with a non-factory barrel, fit to a nice Kevlar stock that shoots 1/2 inch MOA is not a custom but shoots super.

I have an HS Precision that I consider custom as it is all made in one place from scratch in house and shoots super. It was made per my requests and ideas.

Another view is a gun that is actually rebuilt from a desireable action and a stock built to your specs and then a barrel made to you specs would be a custom of sorts.

I think in actuality the only true customs were the guns built in years gone by to a hunter's specific request with ammo to match, like your old doubles or bolt rifles.

Or, a custom is one made for you just like you like it no matter what it is made from...

02 October 2016, 06:52

dogcat

quote:
Originally posted by LongDistanceOperator:
quote:
Originally posted by mightymouse:
...Nowadays, a production sporting receiver, with a different trigger, barrel, and a synthetic stock painted some hideous color is often called a "custom rifle"...

What if it's a really pretty color like metallic purple with flames?

I would do that with a varmint/hog rifle...but I do admire walnut and blue steel. Some of the traditional customs on here are just beautiful.

I need to paint my Suburban like this!!!

02 October 2016, 07:06

srtrax

A custom is what I have in my head at the time. Then it seems to change to something else after it's finished, near finished, before finished. Thinking of joining Custom Anonymous and there 10 step program.

No...BS, I enjoy it and enjoys seeing it here on AR, keep em' coming!

02 October 2016, 10:53

georgeld

Ok Cal and others, comment on these.

I much prefer 1917 Enfields even to the fine Sako's I have. Can't do without an '06, right? Knock the ears off, nice stock, polished and blued. All have had the floor plate hump flattened, bolts are original dogleg.

Ok, another I've had since 1958 as a kids first big rifle is now the same, except rechambered to .300win/m, original barrel but, it's getting smooth.

Another: Douglas barrel, stock turned + 1/8", actually a full 1/4" thicker and bigger all over. Chambered for .358U/Mag. 15lbs.

Now in the works is a 4th one: Shaw barrel, 8:1, in .243.

All these except the 358 are as close alike as possible. All 26", nice walnut, not fancy as some, but, attractive grain, truoil finished, Timney's, pad, floor plate engraved with cartridge. I hadn't thought of the finish being painted black shit, but, Keven Weaver built the .358 and reworked the 300, he painted both flat black. The 243 will be polished and blued properly.

Ok, are any of these: custom?
All are stocked LOP 14 1/4" to fit me, with extra long arms, Last I checked I had a 6'4" reach, I'm 6'1" or was, no slings, I don't like 'em. All scoped.

Thanks, I'll check back another time to read up on the comments I hope will come in.

George

02 October 2016, 11:36

capoward

quote:
I'm not as generous as some when defining custom made.

For instance, assembling a pile of commercially available parts into a rifle is one method which will produce a "custom" rifle. I feel that falls short of the spirit and intent of the process.

Modifying existing rifles and actions into something more than they were is another means of producing what some would consider a "custom" rifle.

My opinion is that if the rifle in question would not have existed in any other form, that its existence is solely dependent on the fact it was made for someone and to their specific requirements, as stated before construction, then yes it is a custom rifle.

Now what do you call all of the other stuff out there? I have no idea. I own several sporterized model springfield -03 rifles. All have new stocks, triggers, barrels, etc. None are in my opinion custom.

I understand where this individual is coming from intellectually, but very often the metalwork - action, trigger, barrel, sights, etc. were purchased from an outside manufacturer and then modified and fitted in house to some very expensive historical custom rifles.

Perfect examples were the various M98 Mauser actions, and often barreled actions, procured from the various Mauser factories in Europe that were used from the base models to the most expensive models from H&H, Rigby, Westley Richards, etc.

Yes the factory produced actions, and barreled actions, were modified within the gunmakers shops, along with being stocked and finished as ordered by the customer.

So does a "custom rifle" where any part of the rifle is not manufactured solely within that gunmakers shop become "not a custom rifle"?

02 October 2016, 21:07

smallfry

Really this is a discussion? A custom rifle is a rifle made to someone's specific order. If you buy a winchester 70 that is offered with or without sights and you choose it with sights, you do not have a custome rifle. Conversely, if you buy a Winchester 70 without sights and then have them put on by a service ( such as your neighbor, a gunsmith, or even Winchester custom shop for items not cataloged in specification) you have a custome rifle and you have customized the rifle. There are a few people here that believe a "custom rifle" is a completely arbitrary determination based on how "my quality" looks to yours. Which is not only wrong because it's not a subjective determination but misuses the term quality. A custom rifle has nothing to do with quality or aesthetics.

02 October 2016, 23:34

Doubless

I have three rifles I would call complete customs. All three started with nothing but the actions, and stocks, metal treatment, etc., were to my specifications with recommendations from my riflesmith.

I have a trip deuce on the Zastava mini; it is a Mannlicher, stocked in black cherry. Carbine red and classic bluing is a stunning contrast, and Robert built me a one-hole pest rifle.

The second is a 35 Whelen on the MRC Long Action. Stock started as a slab of English, and Robert added express sights, a quarter rib, NECG hooded front, Neider skeletonized butt plate, etc. No front cap; blank was too spectacular to cut away figure for ebony.

The last one helped get him into the ACGG; it is a full-blown 400 custom H&H on the MRC Magnum action. Blank from Roger Vardy, drop box bottom metal from Duane Weibe, quarter rib and express sights, NECG front with folding hood, widow's peak ebony forend, pigskin covered pad, etc. Just an exquisite rendering of a DG rifle.

And fwiw, all three are LH.

03 October 2016, 00:07

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Scott:
If I spray paint an old shotgun it has been customized. Making a rifle beginning with blocks of raw steel is also custom. Most fall somewhere between.

i can agree with this -- sort of like the difference in handloading and reloading -- and wow do some people take exception on this, even though the steps are identical.

I'll state, that on custom rifles, there is an inference that all of the work done somehow improves or idealizes the "architect's" vision on how it should operate.

after all, swapping a barrel, changing caliber, altering the shape, finish, and texture of a stock, and the metal finish .. and i think we agree, that not ALL of these need to be done to call it a custom rifle ...

well, here's one that "perfects" several things
1: rifle to scout carbine
2: "improved" metal finish
3: caliber change to a classic (though, truly the x54 and the 45/70 are contemporaries)
4: modified/improved stock shape from original
5: improved stock finish
6: alteration to all for better optics
7: removal of unwanted features, such as overly long barrel, un-wanted "extra" wood on the stock, relocation of connection points to fit the owner's desire, and discarding the cali-illegal bayonet/tent spike

wow, such a rifle sounds like a sight to behold, given it's custom nature and leveraging all the stuff that we think would be hallmarks of a custom rifle

no hate mail, please

03 October 2016, 09:10

458Win

A majority of the old English classics, including double rifles, may have been primarily built by hand but none-the-less were still factory made guns.

03 October 2016, 09:33

Idaho Sharpshooter

For me:

I decide on a caliber.
I buy an action from somebody.
I buy a barrel from somebody.
I buy a 90%+ inletted stock from a blank I picked out from somebody's stash.
I have one or more artisans assemble that pile of parts I bought.

Then I start load work.

Pretty simple, imho...

Rich

03 October 2016, 16:27

xausa

quote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
What constitutes a custom rifle today?

I am sufficiently out of the loop not to be able to comment on what constitutes a custom rifle today, but in 1959, when I had the late gunsmith Harry Creighton bush the Winchester High Wall action I had purchased out of Shotgun News, bend the tang and fit a Douglas barrel to it, fit target scope blocks and blue it, and when I had sent it to the late Hal Hartley with a walnut blank I had bought from Flaig's, in Millvale, Pa, and then received the finished product back from him, to me, that was a custom rifle.

This first rifle was followed by a string of High Walls and a Sharps Borschardt, plus three rifles based on double heat treat Springfield actions and one on a P-14 Enfield, which found their way to Hal's Lenoir, NC workshop. I doubt that my total outlay for any of those rifles, including scopes and mounts, exceeded $750, but they were, and are, all treasures to me.

03 October 2016, 18:56

surestrike

Custom Rifle;

A rifle that takes three to four times longer to complete than was promised by the gun smith. When completed this rifle will generally not feed, function and or will have accuracy issues. The rifle will cost two to five times more than the original estimate and as mentioned above will have little resale value.

Those have been my primary experiences with full up "custom" rifles.