I have some pre 64 Winchester Model 70's and am thinking about using the action of one of them for a rebarrel and put in an aftermarket stock I have.

Is there any magic in picking an action to use or just grab one and go?

Any other suggestions or comments would be welcome before I do this.

Not sure it's "magic" but these rifles in excellent original condition are highly collectible and die-hard Model 70 fans like me hate to see them parted out. But those heavily used or refinished or with non-factory altered parts are not very collectible and are better candidates for taking apart. Also, I think it makes more sense to take an action from a common caliber like 30-06 than from a rare caliber (300 Savage, 35 Remington, 250 Savage, etc.). There are so few of the rare caliber M70s left that it's a shame to deplete them further.

Also, it pains me to see Pre-war M70s taken apart. They are real jewels that have survived this long and deserve to live on. Take apart the 1962-63 rifles if you must. Their quality was far below that of earlier rifles but the basic actions remained sound.

Don't exclude the option of saving your M70s intact and buying an action.

Also, bear in mind that you must match the action to your new cartridge--standard 30-06, 270, etc., short Magnum 338, 264, etc., or long Magnum H&H. The magazine boxes, extractors, ejectors, bolt stops, etc. vary among these.

Anyway, you have selected one of the best actions to work with. I tell my Mauser-loving friends that M70s are improved Mausers--better safety, better bolt stop, better bottom metal, better bolt handle, etc. Why re-do these features on a Mauser (and pay dearly) when a M70 already has them?

I have owned 43 P-64-70s, 2 STS Classics, including a P-64 Fwt. by Biesen, in the JOC style and they ARE a fine rifle/action.

However, a commercial Mauser Oberndorf, C-ring FN or especially a Brno 21/22 or ZG-47 is a BETTER action in several respects, the ejector, the bolt stop and the safety is a wash.

The 70 breeching is NOT as sound as the 98, the gas handling is inferior and the P-64s are sometimes brittle and crack-BTDT.

The 70 barrels were excellent, but, my 1937 Type B in 9.3x62 will shoot consistent .75" groups all day. The dozen plus Brnos as above will easily equal any 70 I have seen/shot, LOTS of them and are superior in fit and finish to even Pre-war 70s.

As to "features", that is mostly personal taste, I use 70-style safeties on all my rifles because that is what I am most used to and prefer to relay on "muscle memory" rather than my 70+ yr. old memory as in "is this my P-64 .375 or my ZG-9.3x63??????

However, every real riflenut should have at least one nice P-64-70, they do the job and seldom fail in the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by SNAP:
...the P-64s are sometimes brittle and crack-BTDT.

I have heard this claim a few times over the years but in looking at hundreds (thousands??) of M70s over the past 50 years I have never seen it. Of course, it's possible but so is getting struck by lightning.

What does BTDT mean???

I had one crack at the extractor mortise and a .458WM built by Iver Henricksen, for Truman Fowler, then owned by a wealthy gun nut here did the same.

My experience with them is much like yours 50+ years and scads of them. My most treasured of the 150 rifles I have had since 1964 is an Alaskan .338WM, I bought unfired in 1968 from a retired dealer and it is a GEM.....but,NOT the action that a ZG-47 is.

Been there, done that.

Sure is, I have been struck twice, as a L/O Man in BC and Alberta.....part of the job, but, tends to freak ya a bit!

So much for staying on the subject.

Come on Vicky,
How about before top dead center? Aren't you a car guy?

SNAP,

You are a very unlucky guy. Two M70s with cracks and two lightning strikes! What are the odds of that?

Please stay out of the woods--so a bear doesn't attack you.

One was mine, the other belonged to an older logging contractor on the QCI, a decent stocker himself.

The lightning issue is quite common here in the BC and Albertan fire fighting occupation. I had mine during 21 years in the bush and many others also experience this. We have "lightning arrestors" which work well, but, my second on a 105ft. steel tower, was a bit noisy,

I do appreciate your concern and warning, but, with decades in the bush, I am OK to go.

BTW, here the tern among professionals is "the bush", never "the woods" which is an urban term.

quote:

Originally posted by SNAP:
BTW, here the tern among professionals is "the bush", never "the woods" which is an urban term.

Actually, I think it's more Canadian vs. USA, eh?

I grew up on a dairy farm and we always called it "The Woods." After the farm I lived in 3 different states. All said "The Woods."

Urbanites called it "The Forest."

Nobody I knew called it "The Bush."

mr. boliep: just my 2 cents worth. I've used pre-64 rifles and actions re-barrelled now almost exclusively for my hunting for 30+ years. We all have our own opinions based on our experiences: so when I look at the performance of both my re-barrelled actions as well as factory guns, I honestly see little difference in accuracy and over-all desirability as a hunting rifle. I have found that when the factory barrelled action has been properly bedded, along with the barrel channel, that the factory guns shoot really good for me. My experience is with standard grades vs. the featherweights. I certainly agree with vicvanb on his comments re: matching the correct action. But if you have a scratch for a re-barrel, you just have to provide the itch. I have one re-barrelled to .257 Imp. with the magazine spacer removed, and if I had to do it over again for a .25 caliber re-barrel, I'd have a .25-06. Those 06' based cases were just made to match the standard action-they work so very smoothly.

Incidentally, I have had one incident with what was apparently a VERY high pressure load caused by I have no idea. It is a re-barrelled .300 Win Mag. using an original .300 Win. Mag. action. Not only was the primer gone, but the primer pocket was dramatically swollen. I had to pound the bolt handle open and had to use a rod down the bore to pound the case out. However, contrary to what I always read about these actions with an over-load, I experienced nothing unusual. No gas in the face, no nothing. I think they're a very tough action.

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb:
Not sure it's "magic" but these rifles in excellent original condition are highly collectible and die-hard Model 70 fans like me hate to see them parted out. But those heavily used or refinished or with non-factory altered parts are not very collectible and are better candidates for taking apart. Also, I think it makes more sense to take an action from a common caliber like 30-06 than from a rare caliber (300 Savage, 35 Remington, 250 Savage, etc.). There are so few of the rare caliber M70s left that it's a shame to deplete them further.

Also, it pains me to see Pre-war M70s taken apart. They are real jewels that have survived this long and deserve to live on. Take apart the 1962-63 rifles if you must. Their quality was far below that of earlier rifles but the basic actions remained sound.

Don't exclude the option of saving your M70s intact and buying an action.

Also, bear in mind that you must match the action to your new cartridge--standard 30-06, 270, etc., short Magnum 338, 264, etc., or long Magnum H&H. The magazine boxes, extractors, ejectors, bolt stops, etc. vary among these.

Anyway, you have selected one of the best actions to work with. I tell my Mauser-loving friends that M70s are improved Mausers--better safety, better bolt stop, better bottom metal, better bolt handle, etc. Why re-do these features on a Mauser (and pay dearly) when a M70 already has them?

Actually they are "improved" Springfields

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb:
What does BTDT mean???

been there, done that.

I like the 1952 mod. 70, they are slicker as a rule, got a little rouger after that to 1963 IMO..but for a custom it makes little difference..I love the mod. 70 and the 98 Mauser.

I have a mod. 70 Fwt 30-06 that had the checkering worn flat and looks like it was refinished in bacon grease, I love it..I think I got it form Biebs?? and it came as described btw..

It will never leave my house without me attached to it. its has a slick action, and it shoots dime size groups Has on old fac m-70 low comb stock, and in a 30-06 with a minty bore, can't get any better than that. My original intentions was to build a fwt custom, but after one session at the bench, it had a permanent home in Idaho and in my saddle scabbard..I will proudly use it as is until the day I'm pushing up sagebrush..

For a custom pre 64 use the oldest most used one, they work like greased goose grunt, slicker,n snot. Save the clean ones for the collectors and those that love cab queens.

a voice in the wilderness.... But.... I hate to see the dwindling supply of these pe-64 being taken apart.

I'm not a collector but I have had more than a dozen over the years and just as they were I have never had one that didn't shoot far better than I could from field positions. I have never had a failure to feed eject or fire ever. they are your guns and of course do what ever you want but there are so many modern actions out there to use.

Rifles do strange things. I was firing once at a match at Fort Benning, Georgia when I shooter down the line from me suddenly got up with his rifle and hurried to the armorer's van.

The rifle he was firing, a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester, was missing the top half of the receiver ring and the corresponding top half of the barrel above the chamber. The shooter had fired a shot, had it scored, and was attempting to reload when he first noticed that the accident had happened.

Obviously no barrel obstruction had been involved, since the bullet reached the target 600 yards away. The only plausible explanation seemed to be that there had been a fault in the barrel metal which suddenly gave way and caused the barrel around the chamber to split, taking the top of the receiver ring with it.

I have used pre-64 Model 70's for years in competition, mostly in .308, but also in .30-'06, 6.5mm/08 (.260 Remington), 7mm/08, 6mm-.250 and 6mm Walker International. My only complaint had to do with the shorter cases with sharp shoulders, which gave feeding difficulties.

My "go-to" match rifle for years was built around a pre-War Model 70 action, which had previously been fitted with a G&H side mount, which had been removed and the holes plugged up. It has the smoothest action I have ever used, a great asset in rapid fire stages.

I used a Model 70 .300 H&H on three trips to Africa, totaling eleven weeks in the field and took around 90 head of plains game with it, using Winchester factory 180 grain Silvertips.

I have owned as many as 65 pre-64 Winchester Model 70's at one time, including custom rifles by Griffin & Howe, Al Biesen, Roy Dunlap and Taylor & Robbins. All have proved to be marvelous hunting rifles.

My first Model 70 was bought in 1966, while serving in the Marine Corps. I bought it for $75.00, with the thought of converting it into a match rifle, since it was a .243 which had been rechambered to the exotic sounding Page Sooper Pooper, which turned out to be an improved .244 Remington.

After shooting a 1.5" group with it at 300 meters, I thought better of it, and it still remains in my possession as one of my prized varmint rifles, along with "Old Thor", my Hart barreled .220 Swift.

My accumulation of Model 70's is now greatly reduced, but those two, plus the African .300 H&H, will be among the last to go.

quote:

I have a mod. 70 Fwt 30-06 that had the checkering worn flat and looks like it was refinished in bacon grease, I love it..I think I got it form Biebs?? It will never leave my house without me attached to it. It shoots dime size groups

I think you got that rifle from me. Confusion is that both Beibs and Boliep start with "B".

quote:

I hate to see the dwindling supply of these pe-64 being taken apart.

Sorry but too late to save this one. The Winchester Extreme is for sale.

Local gun collector gave me a pre 64 action and barrel which had been in a house fire and the barrel was actually very crooked as from heat. Not to be unexpected and of no use, but thought about re heat treating action since a RC test revealed something like an 8. Not good, so made contact with metallurgist and gave me a source to check out re heat treating the action, bolt, etc. Did make contact and was told that they would not do it for no way they could determine just exactly what steel was used in the original manufacture of the action. No records existed was told?? Furthermore told that Winchester did not always source the raw steel from the same supplier and "specs" were all over the place?? Shot High Power with rifle built on pre 64 action for sometime and worked like it should, but curious if any others have ever attempted to re heat treat the actions??

quote:

Reply

I had the receiver & bolt heat treated after a fire at Phoenix Heat treat Co. In Phoenix Az. I paid about $125 to have this done. Told them it was 4140 steel. They took it to 40 Rockwell on the C scale. It came out real nice. There are a lot of other parts to contend with. I remember putting in a new extractor & springs. I can't remember what other parts I replaced. I did this for a friend for nothing. He got it for free. I have hot bluing tanks so I could finish it. If you can do the work your self it will pay to screw around with it. If you have to pay a gun smith I think you can buy a old Model 70 cheaper.

It appears this thread has been successfully hijacked.

To the OP, it's pretty much grab and go, for me.

The pre 64's I have had rebarreled were all zero collector value- deep rust pits and so on. I try to keep the cost down by using a magazine, follower, and bolt that are appropriate to the rebarreled cartridge so a 264 magnum won't become a 22-250, or vice versa. If the rifle is to be scoped, I would expect to use a drilled receiver and replace the bolt handle. In a couple where the receiver was re-shaped by the previous owners I had to go to to custom scope bases for the receiver to be useful. And, while it can be done, I wouldn't try to install a clover leaf tang into a new stock inletted for a late tang.

Unless a pre 64 is absolutely ment every collector I know will try to low ball it and resell it to anyone that wants it..

I have no problem with that, more power to them..I also will rebarrel or customize any mod. 70 that I purchase if I am amind to do so, that is my prerogative and a custom pre 64 is worth a ton more than any well used pre 64 IMO..

Collectors with 75 to 80 % guns are not collectors they are simply mod. 70 fans and a 80% gun isn't worth much to a collector by a long shot, many a gun deal gone has bad because the buyer thought otherwise in that he belived old Betsy 70 was worth the same as his neighbors minty gun..It,s a buyer beware world in any antique world interprise..Same in the money collestors guild, and indian head penny all rusted up is worth a penny, and mint one is worth much more..

There are a lot of beat up mod. 70s that are worth only the price of the action..they have no collector value what so ever, and keep in mind the fewer mod. 70 that survive as collectors run the price up and up! Emotion won't getcha far in the gun biz!

Just a bit of conversation on the subject as I see it, not disagreeing with anyone.

I completely agree. My shop would be nauseating for most model 70 collectors. Kind of a chop shop for pristine pre-64s. I don't see that it really matters though unless it's an odd-ball cartridge or a specific date of manufacture. Most of these rifles left in tact would fetch $1k to $2k so does it really do a dis-service to harvest the action and build a $10k rifle on it?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Unless a pre 64 is absolutely ment every collector I know will try to low ball it and resell it to anyone that wants it..I have no problem with that, more power to them..I also will rebarrel or customize any mod. 70 that I purchase if I am amind to do so, that is my prerogative and a custom pre 64 is worth a ton more than any well used pre 64 IMO..Collectors with 75 to 80 % guns are not collectors they are simply mod. 70 fans and a 80% gun isn't worth much to a collector by a long shot, many a gun deal gone has bad because the buy thought otherwise in that he belived his old Betsy 70 was worth the same as his neighbors miny gun..It,s a buyer beware world in any antique world interprise..Same in the money collestors guild, and indian head penny all rusted up is worth a penny, and mint one is worth much more..

Just a bit of conversation on the subject as I see it, not disagreeing with anyone.