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Hi Guys: I have been buying, shooting and selling rifles all my life. I am a FFL dealer and absolutely love a fine walnut stock on an engraved action. But why is it usually a buyer will plunk down big bucks on say an O/U Shotgun, not even a custom, but hem and haw about the price on a beautiful custom rifle. I am talking bolt action rifles. I have sold some very expensive rifles in my time and I have recently access to a private collection of some very beautiful customs. Most are in the $18 to $20K price range. I keep telling the seller, good luck on getting these prices, even though they are well worth it. Some thoughts would greatly be appreciated. Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | ||
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I think you answered your own question. People know that they will never get the resale value, so they try to lessen the initial cost, it's no different to my other passion, building big horsepower engines, if it costs ME $20,000 in parts to build, less labour, the customer always wants to pay less on labour. I have to tack on additional costs in the PARTS price to cover my own behind. Most engines I build aren't this much, but you get my drift. There is a fine Model 70 custom on this very forum that is worth every cent of the price asked for it, but I wouldn't dish out that much on it for fear I wouldn't recoup my money if I ever decided to sell it. It's just human nature, I guess. Cheers. | |||
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When I buy a rifle, custom or otherwise, I buy for the pleasure of ownership, use, beauty and functionality. Seldom have I bought any firearm with ultimate sale consideration. I believe there are at least 2 different types of buyers, economic and feasibility. Economic cares a great deal about cost and resale, feasibility cares about all the things I described. Not absolute, but generalized. Jim | |||
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Different user mindset A new shotgun by the top makers /engravers can get North of 200k pretty quickly&it will be a LONG time getting back to those stratospheric values.A friend sold a pair that went close to 500k new.Rifles are former military weapons dolled up so they were originally made to kill people.Shotguns were made(usually one offs)for gentlemen at weekend shooting parties to shoot driven game and these parties could cost 1 million todays equivalent. | |||
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PAHunter--Check your Private Messages. | |||
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Wasn't it Vincent Van Gogh who could not sell a painting during his lifetime? If custom guns are like Art it will take years and years for them to rise in value, and then only if a person wants a rifle by a special maker, who unfortunately has passed! Everything is relative. If you earn a couple hundred thousand a year a $20,000 rifle isn't expensive. If you earn $50,000 a year it is. | |||
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Hi Vic: I answered you question in a PM. Some of these rifles are to die for. The gent who owns them used to be part owner in a big custom rifle company that went bust. You would definitely know the name. He spent extensive time in Belgium where he acquired most of the engraving. We both know and use a Master Gunsmith called Lester Knipe who is the best I have EVER seen in my over 50 years of selling, shooting & collecting firearms. Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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If one is not looking for something specific or particular and has value in mind, look no further than a custom rifle search on Gunbroker, GunsInternational, etc. There are a few beauties presently available on these sites for far below replacement cost. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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I make a distinction between "custom" and "bespoke." I am a firm believer in depreciation of "used" custom rifles- whether they have been shot or not. Bespoke to me means "new" and "mine" and commands the price. If you get over the haves vs have nots and deal with people who can actually afford these rifles, unless you get a sweetheart deal on an unfired custom rifle, a few grand here or there makes no difference, so why not just have one made to your liking. I'm willing to pay $15K for a new Echols Legend, but I wouldn't pay that for a "used wooden custom" as I would rather pay the Wesbrook, Wiebe, Anderson, Kobe et als the same amount for a rifle of my own wishes. My wife recently bought me a '42 Pre War Mod 70 .257 Wby with an absolutely beautiful piece of wood for $2500 from a guy who paid $4500 for an $8K gun. Wood alone on that rifle would cost upwards of $2K. The irony of all this is that while I have been waiting for a pair of custom rifles, they have nearly doubled in appreciation as the replacement cost has almost doubled. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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I think the word "expensive" sorts it out. There are relatively few buyers for $20K guns no matter what the guns are worth. | |||
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Hi Guys: Over a year ago I bought an extensive gun collection. In all it was something like 41 firearms. I paid a hefty amount and I needed to get my money out of it, sooner than later. I had three Blasers. A K95 Brand New Comtessa in .308. Could only be ordered from factory in Germany as a special order. It had the most beautiful stock I have EVER seen on any rifle. Another brand new R93 Luxus with another killer stock and a R84 with two barrels and two Swaro scopes. I ended up selling them, but it took Blood, Sweat and Tears. LOL I also sold my bespoke Chapuis .470 NE & Merkel .500 to start my business years ago. That being said, I am still a sucker for a beautiful stick on an engraved action. God help me.. Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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I always figure custom rifles are losing proposition. After you leave smiths with it. One it built for you not the other guy and there are just to many good rifles out there for a lot cheaper. | |||
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Hi Guys: I am just finishing a semi custom for my nephews upcoming African Lion Hunt. I did him a custom 300 RUM for our trip to New Zealand a few years back and now he is RUM crazy. It was to much work to do a full blown custom..soooo I cheated and ordered a 375 RUM North American from Remington Custom Shop. It all ready has the flutes on the barrel and a custom muzzle break. It comes with a Composite Glass bedded black spider web stock. I had my master GS do black backed ceramic inside the Flutes with a jeweled bolt. Then I used talley SS bases and rings with Black matt finish Leupold VX3 3X10 Boone & Crocket Scope. It sure looks good. But even that Rifle is pushing close to $3500.00 cost in equipment and Scope. But it is definitely a hunting Rifle and no safe queen. Oh well off to the range tomorrow. I all ready Laser bore sighted it in the shop tonight. I will be using Superior ammo with 300 grain Barnes bullets traveling at 2850 FPS. This puppy should hit like the Hammer of Thor. Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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Sounds like a good hammer. What do you think it would sell on the self. Most likely be hard pressed to get your money out of it. | |||
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I expect you really knew the answer when you posted the question. I certainly understand wanting confirmation in ones opinions, however. I can't afford those kinds of firearms but if I could it wouldn't bother me to drop 20K-30K on something I wanted. Then there is what I have always thought of as what I can afford and what I will afford. I "can't afford" to spend 3K-5K on a rifle but I am willing to and have. Regarding resale, for me it's a thought in the back of my head. I consider it as something that will benefit my heirs more than me. There has been exceptions to that but generally I am loathe to part with something once I have it. There is also what another poster alluded to. Those "two general types of buyers". In my part of the country you have those who want the best that can be bought for the cheapest. Consequently you see lots drooling over an H&R break action in 45-70 thinking they have bought a Shiloh or Axtel Sharps and have a "gen-u-wine buffalo gun". Not a thing wrong with and I am tickeled to death for them. Then there's the run of the mill Remchester-uger-avage with the occasional CZ, Tikka or Mauser. Good firearms but as yet another poster alluded to, it will be generations before they have much value, if any. Another question might be; why will some folks spend 50K on a car or pick-up that they know is going to lose 10% once they drive it off the lot? As a former employer used to say, "it's all a matter of taste and there is no accounting for taste". DRSS: E. M. Reilley 500 BPE E. Goldmann in Erfurt, 11.15 X 60R Those who fail to study history are condemned to repeat it | |||
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p dog shooter, I doubt that Jim P's nephew will ever sell his "lion rifle" so it's re-sale value is inmaterial. If your purpose of buying a custom rifle is to re-sell it,then you are buying (ordering) it for the wrong reasons. To the best of my knowledge,of the hundred or so rifles that I've built for clients only three have ever come up on the secondary market.I bought one,one was lost through a bankruptcy and one was sold by the client's family after he passed.All of the rest still belong to the original clients or have been passed on to family.Most have been used to hunt,but there are a few "safe queens"that have been kept and valued as examples of my work. David L Wesbrook | |||
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My opinion only, but if you insist on calling it a "hammer", why not go back to the sniper's hider or 24hr camplfire. I believe he was referring to a rifle! Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I pay for nice shotguns because I live with them at the skeet range. Who shoots a rifle 20,000 rounds? A prairie dog hunter that goes through 4 or 5 barrels? | |||
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+1.Walk along the line at a box bird shoot or a driven grouse moor and often you can run up close to a million in nice guns pretty quickly.Doesnt happen at sighting in day at your local range | |||
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What is a custom rifle? Presumably one that has been customized for a purpose. Custom benchrest guns are built to optimize accuracy and are built from the action up for just that purpose. With modern technology, factory bolt action rifles with 1 moa accuracy "out of the box" are fairly common. So, that leaves function ie. smoothness of cycling etc. etc which are pretty standard gunsmithing work (but often not regarded as customizing) and appearance, which generally means upgraded wood and perhaps engraving. Bolt action guns do not have a lot of room for metal engraving unlike, O/U shotguns and S/S double rifles. Appearance is appearance, so what appeals to some may not appeal to others ie. taste. Witness the dislike for much "Germanic" engraving and wood work! So, if I really like a gun that has superior wood and I can get it for less than a new gun, I would, But I would not expect to pay a new gun price. Personally, I believe form follows function (as in skeet guns for example) and don't especially want to pay a premium price for extra nice wood. Perazzi's for example are noted for their "ordinary" wood. International shooters at the Olympic level shoot the Ergosum orthopedic stock which is not wood at all! Nevertheless Americans pay a premium price for Krieghoffs! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Seems the question was brought up in the OP | |||
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Very interesting and appropriate example. Since you mentioned engines, let me tell a personal story. Some years ago I had a nice Porsche. I decided I had to have an all-out NASCAR small block in it. It took me three years to do that, including making some of the parts one-off on my own machines, and cost me between $21,000 & $22,000, without putting ANY value on the parts I made. When completed, it would still corner like crazy (new engine only weighed 10 pounds more than the old Porsche engine) and it would do 0-60 MPH in under 3 seconds flat. Then three years later I lost the use of my left foot, essentially forever as it turned out. So I had to sell the Porsche because I could no longer use the clutch. So I sold it...for $3,500! Did I take a bath on that venture? I don't think so. I got three years of fun building it. Then I got three years of never-to-be-duplicated absolute JOY driving it as my daily driver. So, that is 6 years of unmitigated sweet daily hedonism for $3,000 per year. ($250 per month) Not a bad deal in my book. Money can always be gotten eventually. Joy is hard to come by, whether cheap or dear. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Alberta that's a wonderful example. I did something similar building an airplane. It took 7 years to finish Tootie Mae and I flew her for four before I ruptured a disc. I finally sold her for a fraction of what I had in her. Was it worth it? You bet. I had more fun and learned more building and flying her than I can put a price on. Same thing for my firearms. I get joy from handling a fine rifle that someone has expended a lot of time and skill doing just right. If you look at them as an investment or as just a tool a custom rifle or shotgun is not worth it. However if it gives you joy what price can you put on that. Jerry Liles | |||
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I'm with Duane 100% on this one. | |||
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Hi P Dog Shooter: The Remington NA custom Shop would probably sell for around $2200.00 if Remington ever starts shipping model 700's again because of that damn trigger recall. The Leupold B&C and Talley Mounts you can pick up anywhere. The Black Inside the Flutes is really like a hot blue ceramic and heat treated. That's about $175.00 I would say selling price around $3900.00 for the whole shabang including scope and mounts. Its funny I never reloaded for the RUM's. The factory ammo was so accurate SUB MOA that I never bothered. I came back from the range today. This latest one is shooting in the high 600's low 700's sub MOA. That Superior ammo with the Barnes 300 TSX bullets is pretty impressive. I choreographed 10 shots and the average was 3,859 FPS. My work is one is done. Thank God. Thanks for all the input guys on this thread. Hey Dave it was nice chatting with you the other day. Regards Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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I too. Black Velvet tastes like shit! _____________________ Steve Traxson | |||
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I am with AC on this one. If I spend money on a rifle or a shotgun the primary value comes from enjoying its use, not admiring it indoors. So my most valued rifle would have been well cared for but would have a well worn finish from many days in the field. That means worn checkering, missing finish, nicks and bumps here and there. I have a nice looking Browning 1885 with very worn checkering on the straight grip, a Vz 24 based rifle with a bolt that is as smooth as a Mannlicher and an autoloading shotgun with a hole worn in the finish by my whiskers. The value of each of these comes from the time spent using them. | |||
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Jim P, Your clientele might just prioritize shotguns over rifles. Everyone has their own preferences. Alberta Canuck: The following is to make points that your post(s) inspired. I had a experience in the late 90's where (nearing 50 years of age) my passion for early Mustangs which started with the dozen or so bone stock ones I had owned back in the 1970's, was rekindled after I told my Wife at dinner one night that I always wanted a "fast" Mustang and wanted to build it to race the quarter mile, something I never had done but dreamed of doing. Her reply of "go for it" drove me to build a "improved" 302 small block engine. I outsourced the head work and block work and assembled it and added MSD ignition and a 9 inch rear, Jet hot coated Hookers and pretty much the good stuff. After over 250 runs at 7,000 rpm the aluminum #7 piston went through the cylinder wall just when my reaction times were near perfect. So, I bought a Ford Racing 347 crate block with all the forged goodies, added a roller cam, Boss windage tray, Victor junior heads and intake, etc., had the C4 tranny beefed up with an extra clutch disc, got the roll cage and the fire suit and raced 3 times when I had to quit because of my worsening heart condition back around 2005 or so. Dizziness has no place in a car going 118 mph in 11.3 seconds. Since I bought the car before a surge in values, I recouped most of my cost except for the initial cost of the first engine. I could have just as easily built the car in a hot market and had to sell at a loss as the recent economy downturn caused a dip. Had I lost money, I would still have had no regrets. I fulfilled a passion. Thanks A/C. Good food for thought. Another point to add here is that perceived value means different things to different people and their level of "passion" may vary from gun type to gun type. If your dream gun is a well balanced factory O/U then good for you. If your dream is {and your wallet allows} to have one of the top craftsman build you a rifle "exactly" the way you want it from the choice of wood to the brand of trigger, safety. bottom metal, action, etc. to your exact specifications such as length of pull, the style and LPI of the checkering, Gabon ebony tip or not, style and color of the recoil pad, fully filled pores, hand-rubbed and polished to perfection, polished & contoured action, polished raceway, filled threads on the rear tang, hand-lapped or cut rifled premium crowned barrel, one or both square bridges, lapped lugs, or what ever your heart desires then expect to have to pay full retail for it. The more 'bling' you add like engraving, inlays, barrel hardware the more it costs. The more premium the builders' work is the more time it takes and the more it costs in general. If you can figure out exactly what you want, you can get that and only that if you can spare the time and have the patience to wait. Should you choose to take a used or previously owned rifle, then you are buying someone else's dream. Shortcomings like undesirable L.O.P., caliber, wood grain layout, finish type etc. are the norm. For me and possibly others, used customs have that potential for a reduction in passion and perceived value because of those shortcomings. For some of us "production time" can cause a reduction in passion as well. Speaking of other folks passion, I've seen some dandy bolt action customs on here and elsewhere that are within a hair of my preferences. I'd jump at the chance of owning them in the unlikely event they are put up when I'm looking. I can afford it. Word of advice to the passionate, don't put off something you dream of. Life is too damn short! After several years of visits to various doctors, specialists, quacks, insurance sucking emergency rooms and ER physicians, and a false stroke last October, my ol' ticker finally was declared back to normal a few months ago. But, life is not guaranteed. Life flies like hell after the 50's roll around. CB Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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You would likely then appreciate the RUF RGT8 Porsche, ITs based on the already awesome thoroughbred high performance factory GT3, but Mr.RUF in Germany relaces the flat SIX engine with his own larger capacity quad-cam V8 of his own manufacture... Weighs less than the SIX and also has a lower centre of gravity... 8500 RPM redline.
Luxury cars typically on average retain only about 55% or less of their orig. value after just 3 yrs. [ retained value of 35% after 5 yrs] Some very high end [Merc S65]and even rather low end cars [Chev Cobalt], loose as mush as about 80-84% after 5 yrs.... and some people worry about the retained value of often less costly custom guns.... | |||
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Wow there is a lot of great wisdom in some of these posts. You see I am a lucky man, if any of you ever visited my website, you will see in the opening paragraph that I am living my passion. Oh yeah, I had long love affairs with about 15 different motorcycles, mostly Harleys. Mixed in with Corvette fever for about 15 years with multiple fast Vettes. But my passion for firearms, shooting and hunting has never wavered. Especially beautiful, accurate rifles. From the game fields of Africa to the mountains of New Zealand, and frigid North of Alaska to the vastness of British Columbia, my passion for the outdoors and firearms lives on. My bucket list is basically fulfilled. I had always hoped for just one more visit back to Africa. But alas age, economics, and other commitments has taken its toll. But a small piece of me still goes with my customers, family, and friends in the firearms I sold them to the custom touches of their dream rifles and firearms that I helped them pick out or put together. Just like my nephews new .375 RUM. So in that case I am blessed. Custom rifles, hell yeah. I keep slapping myself every time I go back to the Double Rifle forum.... No Jim you don't need that Searcy or Heym... but as you know need has nothing to do with it. ........ Jim P. The Hunters Hut Firearms Sales & Service PAHunter/ The Head Hunter DRSS,NRA,SCI,NAHC www.huntershut1.com | |||
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Good for you. It's people with passion that are the most motivated. As far as going to the Double Rifle forum, my Doctor had a saying that stuck with. I said Doc, it hurts like hell when I do this. Well, don' do that. Pretty simple. Try it. Let us now how you do with that. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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That's an easy one..Hell I can buy a really nice rope horse for $20,000! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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.....or a used 2000-ish Porsche 911 Carrera. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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