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| One of Us |
Hi all, I was wondering if anyone could point me to a book or resource detailing different take down options for a bolt gun, with some how-to info? The screw off barrel with interrupted threads for a bayonet type lock up seems the most appealing so far, but I wouldnt mind seeing what other options have been used and what to look out for when doing one of these...if such a resource exists. Thanks in advance! | ||
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With a Blaser, loosen the 2 Allen bolts under the forend, pull back the bolt, and lift off the barrel. Put it back together and still shoot 1/2 MOA :-) | |||
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Not sure where to stear you for a resource book but I've been thinking about "taking down" my Win M70 just by taking the rifle out of the stock. Stock is synthetic pillar bedded so I think if I always torque the screws to the same inch pounds setting that it should return to same zero. I'll experiment with it and see. | |||
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My friend and I do that all the time if we take regular rifles to Africa. It gets them down to 32" or so, and they seem to be fine when re-assembled. This is with large-caliber rifles, so "minute of Buff" is all that's needed. | |||
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Disassembly is not a bad idea. Did it on two African trips, could not see a change in zero. Once took apart my 270 completely to clean up the chamber champfer..(ie. had to take off the scope and barrel, etc) Upon re assembly, I was so close to original zero, it could have been the shooter! A true TD bolt gun is a slam dunk to travel with. Doesn't even attract much notice. Easy on inspectors in those phone both size offices, but the down side is that they all want a demo on the TD system. | |||
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Now that's funny...and probably very true! Zeke | |||
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It's a nifty system thats for sure! Blaser like to push the envelope. I took an F16 O/U apart out of interest...some really cool ideas in that gun, the ejection system being one of them! | |||
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Nice idea! I've seen some old vintage guns (Westley Richards I think) use the same system. I'd probably want to try and put some steel bearing plates in a walnut stock to avoid wear and tear but not an issue with a synthetic stock. | |||
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What TD system do you use Duane? | |||
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This is the Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1906 take down system. It involves removing a spring loaded pin in the fore end, removing the magazine, and turning a lever in front of the trigger guard.   This is the Model 1916 Newton. In this rifle the hinged floorplate acts as a wrench to loosen the front action screw, and the action simply lifts out, leaving the trigger guard and magazine in place. With both systems, the rear of the action is secured by locking into a steel fixture, like that on an M1 carbine. The Newton system is adjustable for wood shrinkage.    | |||
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Well...first of all I condemn any TD system that requires a tool. I recall a fellow gunmaker running around a gun show trying to find an allen wrench so he could take apart a gun that HAD to go into a short case... and he was flying home. You have to face it...ALL threads will wear. My "system" takes wear into account and is adjustable. I like to use one favorite that uses a lever cam to pull the stock parts together very rigidly. I think interrupted threads are probably OK, but the gunmaker in a more defensible position if not used. | |||
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Some of the nicest take-down bolt actions I have seen were done by Martin Hagn and were based on (naturally) Mauser actions. I agree with Mr. Weibe in that a good take-down should require no tools. Regards, Bill | |||
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I'd go a step further..some of the nicest custom rifles made today, come out of Martin's shop, take down or otherwise | |||
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I always wanted a take down, so about a year or so ago I built a 7x57, 9.3x62 take down from a Brno mod. 21 I purchased on AR as a project gun, it had a shot out 8x57 barrel extra and a minty 7x57 installed, stock was trashed.. Glued the stock together and had it copied with a great piece of colorful Turkish from Russia..had the shotout 8x57 rebored to 9.3x62, and low and behold both barrels fitted the inletting perfect..since both were original barrels had the original iron sights, Ihad to go with screw on barrels and a barrel wrench to change them out..both shot an inch or better and it only took about 20 minutes to chage them out by lifting the barrel out of the stock about two inches and screwing the required barrel in or out to change them..It was a beautiful rifle.. I had only two problems with the rifle, the first being I always had the wrong barrel on it when it came time to hunt, so I tended to just shoot it with the 9.3x62 so if I ran into DG I was prepared..The second problem is a fine fellow wanted it more than I and I sold it to him for a hell of a price..I hated to let it go but the green stuff overtakes me as a rule. The screw on barrels with the barrel wrench never changed zero on bit and I marked the barrel position on both barrels and tightened them to that mark...it worked. All Im left with is my pictures of that beautiful rifle. I lust at them from time to time, but there is always another down the road.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Many thanks for the replies gents, much appreciated! Ray...any chance of putting those pictures of your rifle up, it would be great to have a peek. | |||
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 funniest thing I've read online in a looooong time. | |||
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Ray...I'm trying to picture needing a barrel wrench? | |||
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As much as I respect your opinion Duane, I disagree. If you have room in your case or pack to carry a second barrel or even a spare scope then you certainly have room to carry an allen key and a spare if you're inclined to lose things as per the example you quoted. I bought a Blaser R8 a couple of years ago for an African hunt. Their takedown system is simple, fast, not prone to wear and returns to zero perfectly. We had 8 hunters in our camp in Namibia and after reassembling my rifle and refitting the scope I only needed one shot at the range to confirm zero. Ne scope adjustments required. Everyone else needed two or more shots and most rifles hadn't been disassembled for travel. I recognise that their system is not one that lends itself to being utilised by the likes of yourself. The Mauser M03 shows that it can be used in a somewhat more conventional style of bolt action albeit one that has locking lugs that seat in the barrel. The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Well...it's only a opinion. The use of an allen wrench can simplify TD design, no doubt about that. My practical point is that a tool like that is easily lost or misplaced, Smart money will take spares, stashed in various parts of your gear, making darn sure the wrench is the right size. An SAE might not even be available in the metric world. I have found that TD's seldom "shift " zero during a long plane flight. Same with a disassembled rifle. Not sure what takes place, but the rifle left assembled can be off quite a bit. Of course, the responsible hunter will always verify | |||
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My take down wrench fitted in the action, and snugged the barrels to a matching mark under the action and barrel..Both barrels matched perfectly and inletted the same, says a lot for Brnos early guns..Both barrels were to the same POI and super accurate. I have always been doubtfull of takedowns as a rule, although I have a Savage99 that's incredibly accurate. Dennis Olson did the metal work, including the wrench. I also did a bit of shaping on the tool one uses to insert gates in irrigation pipe and it worked perfect. It looks a lot like Dennis' wrench..I like the idea of screwing in the barrels and full threads. but with iron sights you are required to take it out of the wood. I found that to be no problem and I can't imagine swapping barrels in the field..Just my take on a gun I built for myself..The thieves in Africa were aware of the take down luggage before we were!!  I don't post pictures on AR, never figured it out, but I will send a set of pictures to anyones email that's interested. ..Its a mighty nice gun for those that like lean and mean and pretty wood. I hated selling it, but couldn't afford not to. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I had a model 1910 MS in 9.5x56 M/S/ 2 1/4 NE. Took it on two trips broken down. It worked great. Now I use a lot of McMillan stocks with pillars installed. I've never had a zero shift, not even with a CZ in 416 Rigby (I guess it is the only CZ to come from the factory with smooth, and impeccable feeding.). I do like the idea of a cam that auto corrects form wear. I think non takedown guns get torqued on through their case by baboon brained baggage handlers somewhere between hither and yon.  | |||
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OK action wrench..how did you hold the barrel My brain is thinking something like two pipe wrenches | |||
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Uh.... no offense Duane, but I have in my possession a beautiful 30-06 you built as a take-down like the MS above that uses a wrench located in the grip cap! Alas, based on what I paid for it, please don't say it is a flawed design!!!  On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Duane, I screwed the barrels in by hand, inserted the wrench and tapped it lightly. holding it was not a problem..Im not of the school a barrel has to be screwed in with a lead hammer and testosterone..Im not saying my method is the best, but it worked great, and cost has to be an issue with me on a hunting rifle, that I built for myself, but it sold high dollar and was more or less one of a kind with both barrels being Brno mod. 21s..one rebored, thus would be hard to duplicate from a parts availability, finding an extra original Brno mod 21 barrel would be all but impossible. That said, Im not a take down fan in that I always had the wrong barrel at the worst of times in particular one instance... I do appreciate the fine work that that you have done on take down custom rifles however. I am not sure I personally am up to such a project for that matter, but I can make a barrel wrench!  Apparantly you have used this method also I bet those two pipe wrenches scratched up those barrels..  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray: As I'm thinking about it, one could attach some sort of a handle (i.e. wrench) to barrel AND action,,,That would save wear and tear on the pipe wrenches...HAR! | |||
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Duane, I can send you pictures of the gun, both barrels and the wrench and oak block to vise it up, but only to your email if you want to send it to the below email. I think even you or James would pass good judgement this nice rifle????..  BTW I forgot to tell you I have a block of oak with holes for the barrels, to hold the barrel in a vise when changing out at the shop, and I take them with me wherever the gun goes but could make a set with a pocket knife if need be like if those got lost... Im also pretty sure I could use a piece of bar stock to take the barrel off and on by inserting them into the the rails behind the front ring. More or less how the wrench works...At any rate it never changed POI when I owned it with either barrel. Sometimes we tend to over think a problem and come up with a million reasons something won't work, I did with this rifle to no avail, its solid as a rock in every respect. I could use a pipe wrench also should the case apply..but not real likey my friend. Also one doesn't need to "hammer" a barrel shut with my wrench, hand snug is used by the benchresters, and mine was set up to need a "tap or two" with your pipe wrench, a handy rock, hammer,axe, hatchet, pistol butt or kitchen cleaver.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Several of you have PM'd me for pictures of this gun and my recent 7x57 G33-40 custom, but you must send me your email so I can send pictures. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, I shoot and know a lot of BR guys. They sure as hell are not hand tight. I use a 4' cheater on mine. Most go to 125 pounds. | |||
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Duane, Don't know what you can remember about the rifle but this is the best current photo I have of it... bought it from an airline pilot in Dallas. I put a new Swarovski scope on it. It had one of the small Leupold 1.75x6 scopes in a set of H&H base and rings.  On the plains of hesitation lie the bleached bones of ten thousand, who on the dawn of victory lay down their weary heads resting, and there resting, died. If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch... Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son! - Rudyard Kipling Life grows grim without senseless indulgence. | |||
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Nice Whitetail! | |||
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Yes..I do recall the rifle..those mounts were a real humdinger to install, but I ended up really liking them. Do recall the idea of allen wrench, since there was not a whole lot of confidence in using the floorplate as a lever for the front guard screw. Great to see the rifle being used as intended. Thanks much | |||
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It takes about the same amount of time to type your above post as it does to learn how to post a picture..... If you can build a rifle or toss a rope over a running cow, you can post a picture.... An old dog can learn new tricks. | |||
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Dogcat, Its not time and effort, its old age, irrigating, team roping, hunting, booking hunts, the stuff I have to do, and a lack of interest in learning some things, comes with old age and a busy body..Best I can tell ya anyway!! That and I figure if someone really wants to see one of my guns all they have to do is send me their email address!! so the option is in their hands.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Thirdbite, Sure you can post them,Give some an idea of what the wrench and gun looks like, leave out the pipe wrench for heavens sake! You put a 125 lbs tork on one of those babies and your in a world of ca-ca!! Ray Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Excuse my ignorance, but with the take-down rifles where the floorplate/ trigger guard stays in the stock, I'm assuming the barreled action is still secured by the usual two bolts, but how is the floorplate/ trigger guard held in the stock ?? Roger | |||
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On the one that I looked at, the rear trigger guard screw held a steel block in the stock that the rear action tang fit into. That screw isn't ever removed, and holds the trigger guard in place while the rest of the rifle is separated. Jeremy | |||
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The action is secured as with any bolt action, the barrel is screwed in and out on my rifle..If you use a slick barrel (no iron sights) you don't even have to take it out of the wood, and that's a real plus to zero return, but I like irons on all my rifles so take down is a must..An exception is the Brno in that the shotgun, or double set trigger guard has to be removed and that small screw must be reinforced so it doesn't wear the wood and lose its bind..Several ways to handle this, glass or a metal block glassed into the wood is better IMO.. But with me the bottom line is I don't trust take downs totally, and a lot depends on the barrel and how it viberates and what kind of inletting it requires ( free float, 3 point or tight)...but my main complaint is I ran into a cow buffalo with a snare on her foot, not uncommon in some locations, and I had a 257 Robts barrel to shoot Kongoni.. The one pictured above however worked well in every respect much to my amazement so thus it sold extremely high dollar, that's the other problem..   On a side note the 3X scope sighted in 3" high at 100 yards came to exact zero on both barrels, what a pleasant surprise that was and rare indeed I suspect. I later added a 2x7 and it did the same, so I had two scopes and two barrels. I really should have kept that rifle. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have seen some makers state that they use the "Orth" system for their takedown rifles. I can't seem to find any info beyond google patents that pop up when I search it. Has anyone used that system or does anyone have a pic of what it is/how it works? | |||
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Sometimes I wish I didn't throw out all the Guns and Ammo issues. I remember a system kinda like a savage, the barrel had 1/2 the number of threads, was not taper but the diameter was thin. Then another sleeve fit over the barrel with the remaining 1/2 of the threads, looking like the barrel shank. this drawing is 25+ years old.  | |||
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