I am always amused when people post tiny little groups on paper made with their deer rifles. I used to worry that none of my big game rifles would shoot that well. I have owned some and have seen more rifles that would shoot tiny groups, but few that didn't need a first fouling shot or that were prone to an unpredictable flyer. I love accurate rifles, but I love precision as well. Precision to me means that the rifle will shoot with predictable accuracy every time, from a cold barrel, from a clean barrel or a hot, fouled one. Given that constraint, I find that few sporter weight rifles that I have owned will always shoot predictably into less than two minutes of angle. That means that I limit my shots to those that I can predictably make in field conditions. So my two minute rifle from a bench is a three minute rifle from a field rest and a four minute rife offhand. Four minutes approximates four inches at 100 yards, eight at 200, etc. I find therefore that shooting at big game much beyond 200 yards in hunting conditions with a field rest risks a miss, or worse yet, a wounded, unrecovered animal.I won't shoot beyond 100 yards offhand. What are you and your custom gun capable of on the bench, using an expedient field rest, and offhand? And what does that tell us about our obsession for accuracy?

EXCELLENT point!

Field expedient accuracy can be greatly enhanced by the proper use of the military-style shooting sling. From a sitting position on the ground with my back braced against something and the shooting sling taut around my arm, I can consistently shoot into 1.25 MOA even when removing & replacing the QD scope before each shot.

This is shooting at paper, not animals. The shooter's heartrate & breathing factors mean that this level of accuracy is probably halved when shooting at game. I don't shoot offhand at game beyond 100 yards, I'm just not confident enough and won't risk wounding an animal. But then again, my state has plenty of deer to the point where they've become dangerous nuisances.
Regards, Joe

Vol, the points you raise are certainly valid, but there are some you have not made. First let me say that the only "custom" rifles I have are benchrest guns. However, I do own some very accurate hunting rifles by which I mean sub MOA repeatable, 5 shot groups at 200 yards. I own these in 6.5x55, 300WM, 308, 30.06, 375 H&H and 416 Rigby (!) etc. To me the question is confidence ie. I know that the rifle is capable of a certain standard of accuracy if I do my part ie. hold, squeeze etc. The same is true of my pistols. If I have a pistol (I have several) which is capable of X ring accuracy, then I know that when I shoot offhand at 25 yards, any deviation from the X ring is my fault and that is where I look. To me it is just a matter of eliminating variables. And no, I would not attempt an offhand shot at a deer at 100 yards. I would seek a rest or use shooting sticks which under the influence of Africa seem to be more commonly used in the USA.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

This is shooting at paper, not animals. The shooter's heartrate & breathing factors mean that this level of accuracy is probably halved when shooting at game.
Regards, Joe

And this is what most conveniently forget - the field conditions. I dont include what you guys call stand hunting, but for a walking - stalking hunter who may have considerable elevation changes to make (read hills) in the walk - stalk I think the bench accuracy is almost irrelevant and for the majority of hunters (well us older ones who puff a bit) it is more a case holding accuracy. For big game, a rifle that will put its shots within an inch of poi on the bench, ie a 2 moa rifle, ( and almost all will, even a factory sporter) is more than capable of taking game out to 300yds, untill you factor in the puff and heart rate factor and this is the limiting factor, not the rifle accuracy. A stalking walk on the flat is different to where you may have to gain height in some thick stuff or in rough terrain to get a clear shot or to get within range and then a 100yd ofhand shot may seem very long indeed. My custom 7x57 is capable of excellent accuracy off the bench and this allows me the confidence to know that if I can get the front sight( aperture sighted) or the cross hair oscilations to combine with the target area then a good trigger release will have the job done and meat on the ground.

Von Gruff.

I don't shoot groups- never had to in the field. I take out my rifles each year to remember where I zeroed them and if I were to use the same target it'd be a ragged hole. I'm a very anal handloader.

Why? Because of the 90% between the ears factor. I like to know my bullet is gonna hit where I'm aiming. Ain't no benches in the field, no time to scratch your balls, wipe your glasses, blow your nose and then relax, breathe, etc......never seen an animal wait for you to get ready to shoot.

I've had to make snap shots on more than one occasion where I had barely enough time to get on my knees put the rifle in the sticks and then thwap. It doesn't matter if it's coyotes at 130 yards (last weekend) or a red stag at 310, more often than not I haven't had the luxury of being able to choose my shot- ain't realistic.

Yeah, you don't need bench rest accuracy. But knowing your gun can shoot better than you allows you to do that. It's called confidence.

My $.02
First, my bona fides.
I've probably owned over 100 productions guns over the last 15 years or so, only a few true "custom" rifles. Most were bought used.
In February '09, when I started downsizing my "collection", I listed 55 centerfire rifles that I could remember offhand that I owned. That did not include pistols, shotguns or rimfires. Since that date I've sold some, but another 20 or so have followed me home.
I reload for 57 or so different chamberings from 17 ackley hornet up to 458 Lott.
I'm a member of the Pearland shooters club and shoot bi-weekly, if not weekly. I chrono all my loads and keep records and targets of most all range sessions.
Having said that, I consider myself a meat hunter rather than a paper puncher.

Now a couple thoughts!

If I can't tweak a rifle with my handloads to the point that I can get a maximum of 1.5" three shot group, I blow it out. I've probably sold less than a dozen that would not group. Years ago, I would sell them if they would not shoot under an inch, but I've become more liberal in my old age. If you've got an 8" kill zone, 1.5" is acceptable. I certainly can't hold 1.5" groups, offhand at 100 yds. but you get the point.

Before I go afield, I know exactly where the bullet from the load and gun I am using is going to impact at both 100 yds. and at 200 yds, first time out of a cold barrel, because I have tested it at least a couple of days before I take it hunting. Where I hunt it is rare to have a shot over 200 yds.

I think a better test of a rifle would be to take it and shoot the same target/same distance on three consecutive days to determine the bullet's point of impact.

I never clean a hunting rifle and not foul the bore and have it settle back in before I hunt with it.

Whenever possible I use both a sling and shooting stix.

As in most instances, when you "know you know", confidence replaces fear.

Also, some rifles seem to have eyes and a soul. They seem to hate missing and deplore letting you down. Those are the ones that call to me and seem to go with me most often.

I offer the following as example

Not a full custom, but a semi-custom!

Looks like this!


Cooper model 22, Montana Varminter, 6.5 x 284

Shoots like this!

100 yds. 3 different loads







200 yds. 3 different loads







Kills stuff DRT, when I do my part!



anyway, perhaps you get the point.
Best
GWB

quote:

scratch your balls, wipe your glasses, blow your nose and then relax, breathe,

My routine exactly when shooting Bullseye Pistol! For rapid fire I eliminate the first item.
Peter.

Since when is a shot off of stix a "snap shot???"

P.S. I make the "snap shot" comment strictly in defense of accurate language. Maybe there are regional differences. The definition where I was raised was a fast offhand shot at a fleeting target. Fleeting as in not going to be there long not necesarily fleeing. But usually fleeing.

papapaul,
I think it probably is a regional thing.
We do not hunt with dogs nor do we do drives.
Most deer and hog hunting here is stand hunting. The nature of the country does not lend itself to "spot and stalk". Due to our proximity to the border with Mexico and the nature of the land and critters that inhabit it, I always carry a sidearm. However,there is never a shell in the chamber of the rifle I'm carrying to and from where I will be hunting. In an elevated blind I have a rest of sorts. When setting up on the side of a cliff or a hill I'll either set up a folding stool or position myself as to employ both a sling and shooting stix. When varmint hunting, I use a combination of mouth and electronic calls. Once again I employ the use of stix and sling.
I've hunted for fifty or so of my fifty nine years. For the last dozen years or so, I've spent approximately 30 of our 60 day rifle season "afield". Consequently, I'm under no pressure to kill. I hate wounding animals, and I'd rather not have to track. Therefore a "snap shot" is rarely employed.
GWB

A few observations of my own. 1st I have no problem whatsoever with target practice and accuracy is a good thing.. But all the nonsense about 500 yard shots on Elk and such get to be rediculious. Your right, talk is cheap and reality in the field seems to conflict with a lot of internet yak. When Im presented with a shot in the field, unless it is quite close and I know it has to be quick, (you can usualy tell), the first thing I will do is try to get steady. By the seat of my pants, by a tree, by a rock. there is quite often a way to improve on offhand. At least where and how I hunt. And longer shots tend to be the ones that allow a bit of ball scratching. Not always, but more often then 25-50 yard shots.

I seem to recall a statistic suggesting that a considerable majority of game taken in North America is 100 yds or less.

Dont need no stinking 1000 yd eargasplittenloudenboomer...

I, too, get really tired of this 500 yd BS. I just checked several ballistic tables and loads. Typical drop for a 30-06 is about 21-22" between 400 and 500 yds. The 7mm STW or 30-378 WM will drop about 15" at those distances. These are likely two of the flattest shooting calibers out there. So, if you misjudge distance by just 50 yds, you will move your shot at least 7" from POA at that distance. (More if you underjudge). That will be completely out of the vital zone, even if shooting elk. You may, if utilizing a good rangefinder and the situation is such that it can get an accurate reading, get close enough on range if time permits. That ignores, however, the effect of wind, which is always an issue, and usually big when hunting in the west. It also ignores up and down angles, again common in the west. Few hunters carry a table of cosines and a calculator with them. 99.9999% of hunters are not trained snipers, able to dope the wind from natural indicators. Benchresting and range shooting with flags has no practical significance in the field.

I have done quite a bit of long range shooting for fun and practice, spent my younger years as a dedicated varminter, but quite candidly consider 500 yd big game shooting unethical. The game is to scarce and valuable to risk such shots.

I cringe when someone new to hunting, after reading a lot of internet and advertising mumbo jumbo, posts a question as to which 500 yd elk rifle he should buy.

One question to ask yourself and one yardstick to measure by is "Can I hit a cantaloupe at that range with my first shot, every time?"

NOT "Will my rifle shoot a cantaloupe-sized group at that range?", that's a given and shouldn't even be up for discussion.

The operative words are 'first shot, every time'. And 90% of the hunters I know and have hunted beside can't even hit the cantaloupe at 200 yds, much less 500! And you can FORGET about accurate range estimation over about 200 yards unless with a rangefinder.

My friend Fearless Frank has a lot of acreage with several pipelines running across it, providing some very long shots over varying terrain, and he has set up several steel gongs at various ranges out to a measured 500 yds. It's VERY illuminating to try to hit these gongs from various unknown ranges at various viewing positions, that is, from shooting houses, down narrow shooting lanes, over rolling hills, through scattered second growth, over perfectly flat unvarying scrub, beyond an intervening band of different-looking terrain, across a body of water, on your own 2 feet, on your butt, on your belly, you get the picture.

A little practice under these conditions will usually prove to be a VERY humbling experience!
Regards, Joe

Vol 717,
I'll try to answer your questions as directly as possible, because you've brought up a very critical point about hunting rifles.
Both of my field guns are full custom, and they weigh 9 pounds each. I've only grouped the guns from the bench, and from the sitting position with shooting sticks for a rest. One of the guns will average 0.93" for five groups of five shots each from the bench. The last group I fired using that load from the sitting position was 10 shots in 7" at 200 yards.
The other one will average about 1.5" from the bench, and I can often get 10 shots into an 8" circle at 200 yards. If you can shoot groups of 8" offhand at 200 yards regularly, then you are a better shooter than I.
I'm pleased with my own loads and accuracy, since those two rifles accounted for a pronghorn at 280 yards and a mule deer at 180 yards, respectively, last year. The pronghorn was shot from prone using my guide's backpack as a rest. The muley was shot from the sticks and I was leaning back against his truck tire for support.
Obviously both guns are capable of better accuracy than I am in the field.

I appreciate this discussion as it is close to my heart.

I hunt in Wyoming, Kansas, TX and Africa. Most shots are 100 yds or less. I practice for what I expect to shoot. Offhand at 100 yards or less - I can hit 6" targets 90% of the time. From a rest, I hit 2-4" targets out to 300 yards. I use the guns I hunt with except for the big bores. I shoot a .223 to get ready for off hand shooting then finish with a .270 or .300wm.

Over the years, the shots I am successful on are usually the ones I practice a lot. I have missed on several occasions and usually when I under-estimate the distance or try something I am not good at.

In the end, practice is what makes my hunting successful.

I would agree that a rifle doesn't need to shot tiny groups to be useful tool in the field. That said, when I'm using one that does and will on a regular basis it raises my confidence as a hunter that I will be able to make the shot at the ranges and conditions I practiced at.

Confidence in your own ability is a very important tool in itself when it comes time to take the shot.

Terry

Finally a sane discussion about real world shooting. I was beginning to think this was a forum of "Ueberhunters" that could all shoot the marbles of a chipmunk at 500 yds!!!

This topic should be required reading for young riflemen and for a lot of older ones I know.

Thank you

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
One question to ask yourself and one yardstick to measure by is "Can I hit a cantaloupe at that range with my first shot, every time?"

NOT "Will my rifle shoot a cantaloupe-sized group at that range?", that's a given and shouldn't even be up for discussion.

The operative words are 'first shot, every time'. And 90% of the hunters I know and have hunted beside can't even hit the cantaloupe at 200 yds, much less 500! And you can FORGET about accurate range estimation over about 200 yards unless with a rangefinder.

My friend Fearless Frank has a lot of acreage with several pipelines running across it, providing some very long shots over varying terrain, and he has set up several steel gongs at various ranges out to a measured 500 yds. It's VERY illuminating to try to hit these gongs from various unknown ranges at various viewing positions, that is, from shooting houses, down narrow shooting lanes, over rolling hills, through scattered second growth, over perfectly flat unvarying scrub, beyond an intervening band of different-looking terrain, across a body of water, on your own 2 feet, on your butt, on your belly, you get the picture.

A little practice under these conditions will usually prove to be a VERY humbling experience!
Regards, Joe

Joe,

This would definitely a humbling experience the first few shooting sessions in Fearless Franks’ “Rogue Gallery”, but regular practice within this scenario should fairly quickly turn one into a skilled hunter/shooter with little trouble estimating and shooting accurately at any distance out to 500yds.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
This would definitely a humbling experience the first few shooting sessions in Fearless Franks’ “Rogue Gallery”, but regular practice within this scenario should fairly quickly turn one into a skilled hunter/shooter with little trouble estimating and shooting accurately at any distance out to 500yds.

That's kinda why we do it, and now I'm thinking about timing the shots too for added realism. The accurate shooting is only a part of it; when you're walking up to the top of a rise and your eyes come up high enough to spot a 99-pointer 2 or 3 ridges away, are you gonna take all the time in the world to 'assume the position' in leisurely comfort and then unhurriedly 'rangefind' him, or are you gonna do things PDQ?

For a camp meat doe I don't get in a sweat, deer are quite plentiful around here. For a decent trophy I'd be in somewhat more of a hurry though....
Regards, Joe

I just tried what I think is a good practical test. I stuck some clay birds standing on edge in the mud on my shooting range. Got back 100 yards offhand with my .223 and a 4X scope. The gun is a very light weight Kimber and it will shoot into 1-1/4" all day from the bench. I figured if I could hit a clay bird the first time, every time, offhand, at 100 yards I'd be pretty good for shooting big game at that distance and maybe a little farther away. It wasn't pretty.

Vol,
That was my experience when I did "the test" years ago. I spend a lot more time at the range these days practicing from various positions, mostly sitting with the sticks or standing using a post for a rest. When I was a kid and lived on the farm, I found that I could make a lot more hits by using a rest of some kind, whether leaning against a barn or kneeling and shooting over a fallen tree. The offhand shot was only used when there was nothing else to use for support and the range was short. I've sort of gone back to that approach to shooting these days.
It's funny, I rarely see another shooter at the range practicing from field positions. Most of them are nestled comfortably behind the sand bags. Of course, it is fun to shoot those tiny little groups from the bench. However, I found that the more I shot from field postions, the more I learned about how my guns work, how they fit me, how to manage recoil, etc. These things have paid much higher dividends hunting big game on guided hunts than have my efforts to try to squeeze out another 1/8" in group size from the bench.

Slancey, totally agree with your comments.
Determining accuracy using field positions, and firing under time pressures and with fast reloading techniques, is the only true way to determine final hunting accuracy from your gun/self combination.

For the past 55+ years I've been an avid shooter/hunter/collector. I've seen a lot of water flow under the bridge during that time in this field. It's been interesting to watch the trend of younger shooters expecting extreme accuracy (and performance at extreme range) for their hunting rifles. I think it's part of the "gearhead" phenomenon that is promoted by advertising. You can see it on display every day on the TV hunting shows.

A lot of young hunters think you cannot kill deer unless you have trail cameras, full camo clothes, scent blocking spray, food plots full of the latest plants, a bunch of tree stands, grunt tubes and rattling antlers, four wheelers etc.

Of course, these guys think you need a rifle that shoots 1/4 MOA groups with a trajectory flat enough to kill at 600 yards.

I like accurate rifles that shoot little bitty groups but I know from hunting in the 1950s and 1960s that a whole lot of game was shot with "pie plate" rifles--4 inches or thereabouts at 100 yards. And those hunters wore no camo, hunted on the ground, mostly shot at game offhand, never grunted or rattled, and and did not shoot at deer much beyond 150 yards.

Believe it or not, life went on before there were computers,TV hunting shows, laser range finders and hunting rifles that were sub MOA. Hell, I was there!

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb:
And those hunters wore no camo, hunted on the ground, mostly shot at game offhand, never grunted or rattled, and and did not shoot at deer much beyond 150 yards.

So you were the guy watching me hunt last week. Nice to know it was one of our group. I was hunting with a sporterized Greek Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5X54, which would have been right in line with what other hunters were using in the 50's.

Only difference was that where I live there were no deer in the 50's. The first were transplanted into our county in the early 60's, but now our county has had an annual "harvest" of 5000 per year for the last ten years, so add that to the equation. A lot more hunters, using a lot more gear, when a lot less, coupled with a lot of practice, would do as well.