The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Reasonable Price for a Synthetic Stocked RifleGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Reasonable Price for a Synthetic Stocked Rifle | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
I would like to determine just what is a reasonable price for a top quality synthetic stocked hunting rifle. Everytime I see a five figure synthetic stocked rifle offered posts of encouragement appear for five figure asking prices. The cheerleaders don't buy them and apparently not many others do either. A model 70 action, a quality barrel, a top quality synthetic stock and custom bottom metal equals all the raw materials needed. Next come labor and that is where the issue comes in. If a top quality smith takes those components and does his magic, I don't see how you can justify more than $5K for the rifle. I have some really nice synthetic stocked rifles that shoot lights out and all were bought for less than $3K. I have a Simillion 280 I will match against any other hunting rifle I bought for $2800. Please don't tell me about smiths who are out two years on $15K custom synthetic stocked guns. I saw the Miller $30K synthetic Comus touted and was blown away. I wonder how many were sold? The motivation of the buyer is lost on me. I know pride of ownership is important but..... Please be gentle when you cut me to pieces but I really would like to understand whats the correct number for a new gun and a used gun. | ||
|
| one of us |
Call Gene Simillion and ask him to build a synthetic stocked rifle for you for 5K. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Chuck my point with the Simillion rifle is thats where the secondary market is. A 270 was sort of posted on AR a while ago for about $3K. If Simillion wants $10K plus for a new rifle, he will never sell me one. I have a theory the top smiths hate these "ugly" guns and will only build you one on inflated terms. Kind of like Picasso painting the garage door.  | |||
|
One of Us |
There are many excellent gunsmiths and stockmakers that I have used to put together very nice 3000.00 rifles that are stocked in wood. I'm like a general contractor with a few excellent tradesman that I like their work and use. "A long life, and the good sense to live it." ...Quintis Arrius 375H&H,404J,416DAK,458AFR,416RIG,450RIG,505GIB Avatar: Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward in Africa NRA member | |||
|
one of us |
I'm with LJS. I can see the the extensive labor and skill in a high dollar wood stocked rifle.....not that I'm saying a well made synthetic rifle takes no skill and can be assembled by any gun mechanic. Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see the same number of labor hours going into 15k synthetic as would go into a well done 15k wood. I think NULA's pricing is more sensible for example. But then if it tripped my trigger I may pay what others consider "too much". ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
|
| One of Us |
You can get a damn fine custom, synthetic stocked rifle for a lot less than 5 grand. Starting at about $3,500. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
|
| one of us |
You offered to put your $2800 Simillion up against others 5K plus synthetic stocked rifles. Well the reality is your secondary market purchase has a market before it is secondary. So you might as well have said "I'll pit my secondary market Simillion against your new Simillion any day of the week and mine is better cause it cost less". Well that's silly. Someone paid the maker for it even if it wasn't you. These "best quality" gunsmiths building "best quality" synthetic stocked rifles are charging what their time is worth and what the market will bear. Some would like to charge more. Enough people that buy these rifles think they're worth every penny. You apparently included. You're just glad you got it at a discount. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Chuck: I think you are missing my point. It appears the secondary market for my $10K original cost rifle is about $3K. Doesn't that suggest to you that the high ticket synthetics come back to the lower priced customs on resale. I agree the high ticket guns are wonderful but apparently the market does not agree on resale. I have four Ed Brown rifles, a Brown Precision and three McMillans all purchased from $2K to $3K with better actions and better triggers that are one holers. How can I justify 3 or 4 times that amount to perhaps get equal performance. I am not arguing the high end smiths should not charge what they do. Thats free enterprise. I'm just trying to understand the justification for spending that much. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Lou, it's the same justification that sells double rifles for 5-10 times what a magazine rifle sells for. We're rifle nuts, so whatever floats your boat. Logic has no place in the world of a gun loony :-) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Biebs, I know what you're saying. I used to collect Westley Richards rifles and defy anyone to justify what the English makers get for a bolt gun. I love the wood stocked customs by Wiebe, Paul, Echols and many more but to me they have an artistic value. I guess the synthetics are tool like to me. | |||
|
| one of us |
Price is not the same thing as value and neither one measures function very well. | |||
|
One of Us |
You get what you pay for. When it comes to high dollar synthetics you're paying for the metal work. Some just "bed" it, some "true" it and some "remanufacture" it/parts and build their own scope mounts or return to zero bases (Echols, Holehan, etc) <- ya gets what ya pay for....(I'm astounded at how many high dollar custom rifles use off the shelf POS Talley bases- looks like putting curb feelers on a Ferrari.) If I were in the market for another synthetic, I'd gladly pay the $14K for a Legend over a similarly or less priced wooden rifle because I know what I'm getting. I bought my Sisk .300 Win over a decade ago and have hunted the shit out of it. At the time it cost the same/nearly as much as a custom wood stocked rifle (can't remember exactly but $4-5K or so). I dunno what Charlie charges now, but he builds one helluva rifle. There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
|
| one of us |
Time is money. Gunmakers like Echols put enough hours into the synthetic rifles to make them cost 5-figures. Whether that's "worth it" to you is an individual decision, but you're paying for their time. As FMC said, some of these guys are literally re-building rifles, that's not gonna happen for $3k. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I surrender! I feel like I'm in an argument with my wife and I've never won one of those. | |||
|
| one of us |
Don't feel bad, everyone here has rationalized how to spend ungodly sums of money on rifles. | |||
|
| One of Us |
While I am not much good at anything synthetic, I will throw a shameless plug in for a good friend of mine. http://www.texascustomrifles.com/index.html He can build you a fantastic rifle. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
|
one of us |
The first thing you'd have to know to compare prices is the total man hours in the high and medium dollar rifles relative to their price. I can't tell you the exact numbers but I'm positive that there are orders of magnitude more man hours in an Echols rifle than the current crop of 3k-5k rifles. Much of those hours are in improvements that may not be readily seen by the naked eye. And most may be of lesser necessity than what you need to go hunting successfully, but they are there regardless. Then there is the free market device of mark-up for name branding. It's just like cars and boats; if you want a deal find new lesser known talent or let some one else pay for the initial depreciation unless "brand new" has meaning for you that you can afford. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
|
| one of us |
25+ years ago I had Kenny Jarette build my 1st custom rifle . SAKO A111 action #3 Shilen barrel, Brown Precision stock, with an early multi coated Leupold 2.5x8 scope. I hunted hard then and probably killed 50 deer with it. I don't remember what I have in it but probably less than $1,500. I haven't hunted with it in years but if it was the only rifle I owned I would be fine. When it was built it was state of art. Several years ago I met Lou over the internet & he convienced me to start buying used. Since then I have bought 5 rifles in the $1,250-2,000 range all by regionally known makers. To me that is the sweet spot in the used rifle market. I agree with Lou that it is very rare that a Synthetic rifle sells for over $3,000. On the internet it is rare for 1 to sell for over $2,000.00 Lou's Simillion 280 was for sale in Nashville for nearly 1 year before he bought it, I probably looked at it every week & almost bought it many times. | |||
|
One of Us |
I was in Echols shop yesterday talking to him and Brian Bingham and he mentioned that there is $3,200 in materials in one of his synthetic rifles. Add in a bunch of skilled labor and the price goes up rapidly. Chet | |||
|
| One of Us |
Fal Grunt: Thanks for the link. I have an itch for a 6.5x284 and he looks like a good place to start. His top grade offers a lot of gun for the money. I bought the Simillion because I liked everything about it. I didn't know then and don't know now what replacement cost is. It sat for a long time so the market did not think it was a steal. My thinking is any gun that is synthetic and sells for 5 times material isn't worth it to me. Call me a cheapskate but there are some really good rifles out there for $2K. Looks like I created a competitor with Tom! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I built myself a Mod 70 375 to take to Africa last fall, I was asked what I would need to sell it and here is the actual breakdown of my parts and labor taking into account I would basically be breaking even: Echols stock, bare g series action, Wiebe bottom metal, Wiebe box and follower, shilen barrel, Alaska arms rings, necg front ramp & island, talley banded swivel, recoil pad, and a few other small parts. $2400.00 (retail prices) I figured my labor which is very conservative and only $35/hr shop rate for altered bolt handle, custom bases (Burgess style soldered and blind screwed very labor intensive) barreling, soldered barrel hardware, pillar bedded, hot blue, misc. tuning, feeding, trigger, etc. $1750.00 (this is a very conservative number I wold say half what a top smith should get) Total of......$4150 I was surprised at the cost of just the parts. If I were asked to duplicate this rifle for someone else I would quote it at no less than 5K and maybe even 6K depending on the finishing details required. | |||
|
| One of Us |
    | |||
|
| One of Us |
Here is something else to take into account, after getting it all together it has a bad barrel and won't shoot better than 3 inches if it is lucky. I haven't had time to pull it but I would have to do all those things in order to sell it.......now what if it was a customers gun....I would eat at the least my labor to fit & chamber a new barrel with hardware, refinishing etc.....I seriously doubt the barrel maker would reimburse any of that expense not to mention the 100 rounds of ammo and my time spent testing. Gunsmiths have to take into account things like that when they are dealing with high profile guns that have to meet standards. | |||
|
| one of us |
If $2500 synthetic stocked rifles were just as good as $5000 plus synthetic stocked rifles. Then why are we buying used instead of new? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Chuck are you an attorney? I'm having a tough time with the spin you are putting on things. I have no argument with a $5K synthetic price. I question those two or three times that built on Model 70 actions. I buy them used for $2500 because I can find them and if you know what you are doing and are patient you will find great rifles at reasonable prices. That they are available at that price range indicates what the market will pay for most synthetic used guns. I don't go to hundred dollar steak joints either. I had this discussion several years ago with the late Allen Day who had a lovely assortment of top dollar synthetics. He stressed reliability and pride of ownership as being very important. I guess the pride of ownership is lost on me. What got me started on this was the group of what I refer to as "cheerleaders" who feel a need to comment what a good price a gun is being offered at when they have no interest in buying and in fact usually they are wrong. That usually is a disservice to the seller and the gun goes unsold. | |||
|
| one of us |
The question is not why a new custom rifle is so high but what is the market a USED custom rifle. As most of you know there have been 2 Echols advertised here for $10mm neither sold, there was a nice Jarrette on a Remington action for $2,500 that also nodid not sale. Lou paid $3,000 for his 280 so I think a upper end rifle like that is worth $3-4M. Most used rifles build on a Remington clones will bring $2,500-$3,000 if built by a reconized builder. A custon on a M700 action by a regional name will bring $1,250-1,750 depending on the builder. built by a no name builder will be lucky to bring $1,000. | |||
|
One of Us |
LJS, For what its worth I agree with you to a point. I dont see the need to buy a custom 5k synthetic rifle when a semi-custom job that costs half that will due. However, if you want to put together a rifle with the expectation that it will perform, you need to spend the money. Take this into consideration this is what I spent on my Rem clone ultralight. New Action: 1200 Krieger Barrel (installed): 800 McMillan stock: 550.00 Bottom Metal: 150 Trigger: 230.00 Muzzle Brake (installed): 175.00 Bolt handle: 150.00 DIA Bedding: 35.00 Refinish: 100.00 Total: 3390.00 Or my savage LR rifle Used Save 112: 275.00 PTG bolt head: 55.00 New bolt handle: 55.00 Flute Bolt: 60.00 Shilen Barrel: 450.00 McMillan Stock: 650.00 Trigger Job: 1.00 (DIY) Metal trigger Guard: 55.00 Muzzle Brake (installed): 325.00 (with engraving) Durakote: 100.00 Total: 2026.00 As you can see, just bare materials add up really quickly! As others have said, put in the cost a competent gunsmith and you are up in the 5-6k range. Guns are expensive!!!! "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
|
| One of Us |
I think a lot of people are comparing bolt together guns to custom hand work and that is where the difference is which is why I elaborated on the building of my 375. I think 15K for a synthetic is pretty steep myself but you are still buying the craftsmanship even if it is wearing a plastic stock and the craftsmanship will sell to a limited number of people. | |||
|
| One of Us |
As a final clarification, I have no problem with new custom synthetics in the $5K to $6k range. Never did!!!! It is the $10K+ guns on model 70s I can't justify. I just this morning looked at a Lex Webernick 308 for under $2K. Good gun and a good value. That is what is readily available. I just paid $1900 for a Brown Precision Pro Hunter Elite in 338. Sticker is about $6K. The gun is mint, feeds like butter has all the bells and whistles and shoots 3/4 inch groups. This is the type of deal I am looking for. I like a longer LOP but CAS II solves that problem if it is short for about $250 lengthening and repainting. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This type of thread shows up now and again. I just don't understand what it is you want to prove or what your point is. Who are you to tell me or any one else how much to spend when buying a rifle?! If your needs, knowledge, budget and what ever other parameters you need to consider tell you you do not see enough return on investment beyond 5000$ then so be it. If you feel you are happy buying a used rifle built to some one else's specs then fine, have at it. I do not feel the need to comment on your decisions. If 15000$ to me is what 2000$ is to you then why should I not buy a 15000$ top of the line custom rifle built to my exact specifications? Because you (who have never seen an Echols Legend in real life, much less used one if I dare guess) think it is not worth it? Thank you for your concern but I think I can make my own descissions. If I feel 15000$ is justified to pay for a rifle I want, then so it is to ME! Would you stop buying the nice used high quality rifles you mention just because some one told you he does not see any reason to buy a gun costing more than his 200$ Mauser M96 which does any thing one can ask and functions flawlessly!??? My suggestion is; By the rifle you want, at the price you feel is right. Go out and use it. Perhaps spend a little less time commenting on other people's chooses? Pardon me for being grumpy. Some times I get a bit provoked by these things. No offense intended. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Don Geraci will put together(thats all they are) a rifle for about $3500& guarantee HE can shoot<1/2" 3 shots.has to be under 33 cal-he doesnt like recoil. | |||
|
| one of us |
Neat. | |||
|
| one of us |
Aint that the truth. | |||
|
| One of Us |
One of top 10 in the USA, http://www.gradousrifles.com/ problem is he works alone and the backlog is many months. 5 grand usually covers all bases. very best | |||
|
| One of Us |
So, what is "top quality"? 1. the way it shoots? 2. reliability? 3. the way it looks? 4. The materials its made out of? And if so how are those determined to be top quality? 5. The amount of time spent on the project? 6. The amount of money spent on the project? 7. the name of the maker who puts the materials together? 8. the subjective opinion of the owner? I have a synthetic stocked Montana. It shoots very well each time I pull the trigger (if its loaded). I think it looks very nice (whatever that means). It seems to be made out of good materials. I don't think much time was spent on making it, and it only cost a bit over $1000. I don't know who put the materials together, except to say that they work for a company called Kimber. But I think its a top quality synthetic stocked product at a very reasonable price. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am fully aware that you can buy a synthetic stock rifle which could be accurate and reliable for little money. Actually I hunted quite some mountains with one of the first Chet Brown Rem 700 which were not really expensive. Nevertheless, I cannot understand these topics. Everybody has its priorities be it rifles, cars, watches etc. I for my part am very happy with my Echols 300 H&H Legend and like it more than some of my high class wood customs. If not the export would be such a nightmare. | |||
|
| one of us |
I'm guessing those condemning "this" type of thread participate in such conversations when the "this" is something they find ridiculous. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Reasonable Price for a Synthetic Stocked Rifle
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia