My new custom rifle is all but finished except for a rust blue, and checkering..Jack Belk did the metal work and its awesome..I did the stock out of a really nice piece of Russian walnut ( same stuff Marco Polo brought to Europe and got plnted all over the world and named by the geographical location of the trees..SAme wood as the Turkish but across an imaginary line loaded with tanks machine guns and stuff..

got it together day before yesterday and did my test firing. long throat gun (30-06 length) but small ring G33-40 action, LW barrel, fwt.

Gun shoots everything at 1/2 inch or a tad better sometimes and shot all loads to the same POI..Ive never made a gun for myself and kept it, but I am going to try my dead level best to keep this one and pass it down. Hopefully it will be up and going by elk and deer season..It shot my 175 gr. Nosler load under and inch at 2609 FPS average taking out the high and low velocity..not to shabby for a 22 inch fwt barrel 3 shot groups but still in the same place so its got to be good for 5 shots as well.

Awesome piece of wood, well cured in my shop for about 11 years, stable as a glass stock I betcha, and its hard as woodpecker lips.

Got to have pics Ray.

Ray that rifle is coming along nicely! Thanks for the email and also the images. Let me know if you want the images here on AR. I would be happy to assist and post them for you.

Best always,
Shawn

Forgive me but what is a long throat in a 7x57 as in a 30-06 ??
i'm confused because the 30-06 has a very short throat !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Forgive me but what is a long throat in a 7x57 as in a 30-06 ??
i'm confused because the 30-06 has a very short throat !

Pretty sure Ray means throat long enough to take advantage of a 30-06 magazine length.

Now I'm really confused, how does throat length and magazine dimension equate ?

Nice shooting Ray.

ALF:

If you seat the bullets in a 7X57 way out there, you need a longer magazine to allow for the longer O.A.L. (overall length) of your now longer cartridge. The .30-'06 magazine can allow you to seat the bullet out an additional 6 or 7mm further than a 7X57 magazine.

Details: Many think the 7X57 is under powered with standard factory and/or standard length cartridges. Experienced hand loaders that use modern steel barrels will overcome this shortfall by making the chamber space around the bullet (the throat) longer or actually 'deeper' into the barrel lands to allow the bullet to be seated higher than normal in the case neck therefore allowing for more powder in the case and subsequently more velocity which can improve accuracy and extend its' maximum range due to less bullet drop. Plus, longer, heavier and very efficient bullets can be used like the 175 grain Nosler Partition and Accubond.

Custombolt:


So now we are at the point where the rubber meets the road long throats and 30-06 length mag boxes, sounds like a pub name in Ireland

Lets look at the 30-06:

COL: 30-06: 3.34 inches or 84.836 mm
The SAAMI "throat" = .2422 inches ( 6.15mm)
I will get to the issue of "throat" later because SAAMI has a problem with their definitions.

So what is a standard 30-06 max box ? is there such a thing ? well not really unless one assumes that such a max box would at least fit a Max COL cartridge ie then 85mm

Looking at some mag boxes:

Winchester model 70: 85mm
Sako Finnbear: 84.12mm
Zastava: 81.661mm
HVA ( Husqvarna) 85.979 mm
BSA: 85.09mm

Mauser originally offered 10 mag box lengths in their sporting range
69mm , 79mm, 82mm, 84mm, 85mm, 88mm, 92mm, 95mm, 96mm and their longest 97.5mm

The Box for the 30-06 ( 30 US) was very generous at 88mm

FN in their post war Sporters offered a max box of 85mm for the 30-06.

So how about the Brno Model 21 and Model 22
They cannot fit a 30-06 !
The Brno Model 21 and 22 mag box for the 7x57 is 82mm and it is the same for the 7x64 and 6.5x57.

If we look at the issue of the "long throat"

First of all we need to define what we mean by throat and leade ! The reason for this is that the two are often misapplied and SAAMI seems to use the terms as being one ?

Per definition the "leade" of a barrel is the same as "freebore" ie the smooth part of the barrel in front of the chamber and datum point of commencement of rifling.
The throat is that part of the rifling cut like a cone starting at commencement of rifling to where rifling is at full bore.

So my confusion lies with this claim of a long throated 7x57 ?

The Freebore ( leade) on the 7x57 = 19.2mm or 2.64 caliber lengths:
The Mauser mag box was / is 79mm
COL 7x57 = 78mm Leade as shown in the original Mauser charts as dimension G = 19.2mm ( CIP still uses this designation as G and define it as the dimension starting at end of chamber and commencement of rifling)
The original 7x57 bullets was 7.25mm in diameter and 30.8mm long ( 4.24 caliber lengths)

The Brno mag box at 82mm is long enough for a 7x57 loaded with bullet of 175 gr and As i have pointed out you wont get a 30-06 into the Brno Model 21 box not if its loaded to COL.

if we look at Mausers 6.5x57
The COL = 82mm and the Leade is 30mm !
Mauser used a 82mm mag box in their rifles same as the Brno

Brennecke's 7x64
COL: 83.6mm
Leade = 34mm !
Mauser used a 88mm box for the 7x64

my Brno Model 21 7x64 will not take a full COL 7x64 !

Like Wonder Woman's plane - invisible rifle

Not invisible, I can send you pictures to your email and I wont' even charge you the normal dollar per picture!

Alf,
Sometime technicalities destroy ones imagination and destroy ones inclination to simply test.

Some many years ago when I collected Brno mod. 21 and 22 it came to my attention the SR action, derived from the earlier G33-40, German custom rifle called a M-35 or something like that. They all have a long box that would handle a 30-06 length cartridge, and low an behold, they actually cut the throat length to match the magazine, unheard of then and now by factory gun makers!! You are in a position to do your own testing, seat a 175 gr. Nosler or Hornady, whatever and using H414 Powder only, get after it..

If you want my loads to start with email me and I'll send them to you..They won't hurt your gun and you can actually go several grs. higher than mine, up to you. I don't know what else I can say..

I have a very orderly approach/process to finding ALL my rifles max loads, I go carefully and confidently, fearlessly to some I suppose, but something that has worked for me over 50 years just can't be all wrong.

I tested the Brno 21 and 22, after studying that set up and from that day on built all my custom 7x57 the same way using them with my present loads and I have used them for years in those guns and continue to do so today..Something I am sure you have yet to do based on some earlier posts.

Shawn,
Under the circumstances perhaps posting the pictures would be of some assistense, I would appreciate it..BTW I can't wait to see your rifle, I have nightmares over selling it to you, but its certainly in good hands.

Is Jack Belk just doing work for buddies or has ne opened a new shop and is taking in work from the general public?

I wish somebody would post a picture of this damn thing so we can see what it is.

I dunno, he is doing some work, does mine and a few others that I know of..I suspect he is not looking for work but won't turn it down..He is mostly a professional witness in firearms court cases..

The BRNO M21/22 magazine box measures 84,15 mm
(3.313). Always - independent from the cartridge they were build for.

Alleged custom 7x57. No tickee, no washee. Simple. Post pictures.

Stephen

Lord Frith, Ray is challenged at posting pictures.

If you would like to help him, just say so and he will email them to you for posting. I have seen some of Ray's work. It is outstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I dunno, he is doing some work, does mine and a few others that I know of..I suspect he is not looking for work but won't turn it down..He is mostly a professional witness in firearms court cases..

AND mostly for plaintiff, i.e. Against Remington

Jim...Heard that story too...Can it be substantiated?

Jim:
If you search 60 Minutes news program it should have the complete segment on his testimony against Remington. Haven't seen it since it aired, but if I remember correctly he also stated that he knew about this problem for several years before the lawsuit, FWIW.

Since posting the question..asked around...what Alan says is accurate.

Course, the stumbler that transported his loaded rifle home apparently with one in the spout, to his trailer park and pointed it at the wall while he SAYS it "went off" when he pushed off the safety (Killing another person in a nearby trailer)

Gotta ask the question...is "stumbler" blameless?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Since posting the question..asked around...what Alan says is accurate.

Course, the stumbler that transported his loaded rifle home apparently with one in the spout, to his trailer park and pointed it at the wall while he SAYS it "went off" when he pushed off the safety (Killing another person in a nearby trailer)

Gotta ask the question...is "stumbler" blameless?

While working at Intermountain outdoors a bunch of years ago, my friend Joe took a customer's 300 RUM out back and tried to replicate this issue. He was doubtful. Loaded a round, flipped off the safety and promptly shot a hole through the fence and into an air conditioning unit across the field. Was he at fault, yup. Did the rifle discharge, yup. That was an interesting day.

Of course he is also the one who shocked himself with a dog collar and hit the floor. We watched that on video tape a time or twelve...

Would this be the sequence?
1. Opened bolt, put a round in the chamber
2. Closed the bolt (gun did not fire)
3. Put the safety to the rear ALL the way?
4. Pulled the trigger, gun did not fire
5. Pushed safety forward, gun fired.

Not trying to defend a Remington trigger, but unless the trigger was deliberately pulled, the gun should have fired upon closing the bolt or if it simply "decocked", without firing, safety could not have been put on safe.

If the safety was one without a bolt lock, then scenario could be a lot different

I grew up in a gun shop and was taught the best safety is the one between your ears. Most accidents can be avoided if the rules of firearm safety are followed.

Remington eventually changed the trigger to allow you to open the bolt while on safe. They probably figured it would help prevent additional lawsuits for accidental/negligent discharge. If I am remembering correctly it was common practice at one time for Remington warranty repair shops to remove the tab on the safety that locked the bolt while on safe so you could open the bolt in either safe/fire positions.

Don't put adjustment screws on the trigger and expect idiots not to mess with them. I have seen quite a few Remington 700 triggers that were improperly adjusted, dremeled, filed and otherwise totally ruined because some garage gunsmith thought he could get it down to 2.5 lbs. In a few cases I have also seen unaltered 700 triggers gummed up so bad with WD-40 or other junk that the trigger itself would not return after you pulled it while on safe, then upon removing the safety the firing pin would fall because the trigger was not making any contact with the sear. I can see how this would be problematic if you were hunting and didn't have the ability to open the bolt unless you had to remove it from safe but no one would be injured or killed if people had the rifle pointed in safe direction.

I urge anyone who hasn't done so to read Mr. Belk's book, "Unsafe by Design". Not to enrich Mr. Belk, but to see the evidence backing up his claims--to me, it's very convincing. Unless you're aware of the facts presented there, discussions like this seem pointless because each poster is guided by his very limited experience--when compared to a multi-year, nationwide data set.
IMO, Mr. Belk's writing style is awful, but once you get used to it--if you ever do--the information/ evidence is valuable. Not only about Remington, either, but a number of other common guns.

Dave Manson

Sounds like a take off on Nader's "Unsafe at any Speed"..But point taken Dave.

Individual responsibility is always trumped by outrageous awards generated by highly rewarded "expert witness" testimony.

Personally, I don't even like 700's and am not defending Remington's failure to do it's utmost to make their guns "stupid proof", but we all know that's an impossibility.

UTube evidence showing trigger failures is in the same category as Chev Pickup gas tanks blowing up...How embarrassing when said evidence was found to be enhanced by expolsives.

Well..Ray.. we hijacked your thread..probably my fault,,I apologize

Probably makes more money in court than building rifles.

My apologies to you, Ray, also.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Duane about personal responsibility. I grew up in Detroit in the 50s and 60s and was disgusted by Nader's book which showed-among other idiocies-rear suspension angles that were impossible. The helped-along fuel tank explosions didn't change my opinion of the media's agenda either. UTube I put in the same category. AND my first reaction to what Mr. Belk was doing was in the same vein.

As Butch suggests, he may make more money in court than building rifles, but that's not relevant if the evidence he presents is accurate.

All I'm suggesting that his critics read what he's written before excoriating him as a plaintiff pimp. I can't afford to send every person reading this thread one of his books, but I will to Duane and Butch, if, as I believe you will, read it with an open mind. It won't hurt either that both of you are good mechanics and will understand the mechanical interactions and problems he describes. BTW, I don't know the guy and have no reason to shill for him other than I respect the investigative work he's done.

Dave Manson

No need to apoligise for hi jacking if you indeed did, I hadn't noticed and if I had it would not be a catastrophe on my part..Im only here to converse with like minds, HOpe that's not an insult to some!!

As to Jack, he is one of the most intelligent minds Ive ever known, and because of that he thinks beyond what normal folks do, and gets into a lot of trouble over that..He certainly has not gotten rich in his testifying, its more of a challenge to force Remington to get off their ass and save some lives. Im not much at judging folks, Im too busy defending myself The records apparently show that Rem has tried to have his book taken off the shelves but to no avail even with all their money and power, and that they have spent billions paying off those who have lost loved ones..I also believe that if a gun is pointed up it will only kill the fellow in the upper apartment!! All joking aside, gun safety is the rule of law IMO, and that accidents happen, motor vehicles kill more folks on purpose and by accident it seems to me.

Ive read the book, and I know Jack sure knows his stuff on metal and wood, and is a member of the Custom Guild and an ex official who investigated the integrity of that organization, so he passed their muster if that means anything..I also know he had a deal on AR some years ago, but I know he was sick and going through a devorce at the time..and damned if Im going to hold a gruge on someone the rest of my life because that only damages ones SELF.

Just my two bits for this subject..

60 Minutes - the television show - spent a good portion of their hour tonight talking about the problems with the Remington 700. This was a follow up to a previous show that I think Jack Belk appeared on.

The reported that more and more people are complaining about the trigger going off without it being pulled. Reported how a little girl was killed by a stray shot from a 700 where the trigger was not pulled.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
60 Minutes - the television show - spent a good portion of their hour tonight talking about the problems with the Remington 700. This was a follow up to a previous show that I think Jack Belk appeared on.

The reported that more and more people are complaining about the trigger going off without it being pulled. Reported how a little girl was killed by a stray shot from a 700 where the trigger was not pulled.

And your point happens to be? Many years ago I had one go off after the safety was disengaged. You know the reason? I adjusted the trigger without any knowledge at the time of sear engagement. My fault and not Remington's!

I'd be the first to suggest 60 Minutes" is not a reliable source. That said, there ARE many instances when ignorant gun plumbers screw things up, but a questionable design is another issue. Butch, if you'll PM your address, I'll send you a copy of his book and you can judge for yourself if the evidence is convincing.

Dave Manson

[quote]I've read the book, and I know Jack sure knows his stuff on metal and wood, and is a member of the Custom Guild

He is not a member any longer, don't ask why!

Dave, the few that I have seen were gunked up or adjusted by people like myself that shouldn't have fooled with them. I have replaced all of my Remington triggers except my 722 that belonged to Mike Walker. I haven't even pulled the trigger or seen what he may have done to the trigger.

Just for the sake of fairness you might want to read Remington's response to the affair. Of course they don't enjoy the help of the media in making their point.

Fire control systems are mechanical affairs and all are prone to failure especially when you add the human element. Not only abuse but neglect can defeat any mechanical devise. I am not aware of any instance sighted where one of the commandments of gun safety was not ignored. Money was at stake here and lawyers are good at mining it especially with the help from the firearms hating media.


Joe





Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
[quote]I've read the book, and I know Jack sure knows his stuff on metal and wood, and is a member of the Custom Guild

He is not a member any longer, don't ask why!

I'm no longer a member either, go ahead and ask why...

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
[quote]I've read the book, and I know Jack sure knows his stuff on metal and wood, and is a member of the Custom Guild

He is not a member any longer, don't ask why!

I'm no longer a member either, go ahead and ask why...

Ok, I'll bite, why?

quote:

And your point happens to be? Many years ago I had one go off after the safety was disengaged. You know the reason? I adjusted the trigger without any knowledge at the time of sear engagement. My fault and not Remington's!

My point is that a significant number of people who own these weapons continue to report misfires.

Some of the individual stories are convincing - res ipsa loquitur.

I would be interested in Duanes response to why he is not a member but don't suggest he get into that can of worms..I suspect I would agree with whatever Duane has to say on the subject. My advise is lets not go there..

On a totally different topic, I'd sure like to see some pictures of Ray's rifle!