Does anyone here have the detailed specifics of such?

Are they actually detailed in print,.. or is it like an old boys club?

http://www.acgg.org/membership/



Information about Regular Membership:

There are two categories of membership in ACGG: Those that appreciate the quality workmanship (Associate Affiliates) and those that create fine guns (Regular Members). They are united to preserve and promote the art of fine quality firearms.

Associates

Any person, association or commercial firm interested in promoting the art of fine custom gunmaking is invited to become affiliated with the ACGG. Your support is needed to be sure that the appreciation of the artistic efforts combining wood and metal into collectible and usable firearms continues.

What’s in it for You? You will be part of a unique association of artisans and lovers of their work
The Guild strives to promote standards of excellence . Regular Membership by craftspeople is only after submitting work for inspection and acceptance at the annual meeting by current members present. High ethical standards are mandatory and an ethics committee was mandated by the bylaws for the sole purpose of resolving disputes. Offenders are subject to dismissal.

Regular Members

Regular members are individual craftspersons actively in the trade. Members include stockmakers, metalsmiths, engravers, checkering specialist, leatherworkers, and coloring specialists. Application for membership requires examples of work to be submitted for approval.

While the American Custom Gunmakers Guild is fortunate to have many of the world’s finest craftspeople as Regular Members, the broad diversity of our general membership dictates that we make no endorsement of any member’s level of expertise beyond that required for initial acceptance to the Guild.
While the American Custom Gunmakers Guild is fortunate to have many of the world’s finest craftspeople as Regular Members, the broad diversity of our general membership dictates that we make no endorsement of any member’s level of expertise beyond that required for initial acceptance to the Guild.

To Qualify For Regular Membership:

An applicant must be a professional craftsperson who actively solicits commissions to create custom firearms, all, or in part, or related items. An applicant’s quality of craftsmanship in the categories of Stockmaker, Metalsmith, Metalfinisher, Engraver, Checkering Specialist and Casemaker is examined and voted upon by members at the annual meeting. Minimum point criteria are outlined in the application form.

As a prerequisite to submitting an application for Regular Membership, an applicant is required to be an Associate for a minimum of one year.

Regards, Joe

If you are wanting to submit work for acceptance to the guild you need to show the work to three regular members and get them to sign off on it in addition to making the point requirement mention above. I was accepted as a regular member(metalsmith) last year. The required work and point structure is clearly laid out in the application package.I hope this helped.
Steve Bertram

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
If you are wanting to submit work for acceptance to the guild you need to show the work to three regular members and get them to sign off on it in addition to making the point requirement mention above. I was accepted as a regular member(metalsmith) last year. The required work and point structure is clearly laid out in the application package.I hope this helped.
Steve Bertram

And on top of that, you must present at least two examples of your work to the membership at the annual expo to be voted in by a mojority of the members voting.

Trax maybe you should go to a Show and look over the work there and ask a few questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
If you are wanting to submit work for acceptance to the guild you need to show the work to three regular members and get them to sign off on it in addition to making the point requirement mention above. I was accepted as a regular member(metalsmith) last year. The required work and point structure is clearly laid out in the application package.I hope this helped.
Steve Bertram

And on top of that, you must present at least two examples of your work to the membership at the annual expo to be voted in by a mojority of the members voting.

SKB,
I believe Ive found the required work & point structure your talking about.[I chose the metalsmith category, as it involves my FM trade]

However, the minimum required work, is not definitive of the minimum standard of work required.

Re:
"Remember that the point system details only the quantity of work required. Quality of fit, soldering, welding, shaping, detailing, polish, function, and general aesthetic value are the most important criteria on which you will be judged."

What is the criteria for minimum acceptable standards of work in the metalsmithing category?
Does such definition/guideline exist in ACGG print?



REQUIREMENTS FOR ACCEPTANCE - METALSMITH

The applicant must be willing to make two masterpiece quality barreled actions especially for viewing. The applicant is advised that acceptance or rejection for membership is almost entirely determined by the quality of these two pieces.
Since almost all of the listed work refers to bolt action or single shot rifles, it is suggested the applicant choose a quality 98 Mauser, Model 70 Winchester, 03 Springfield, or Ruger #1, High-Wall Winchester, Hagn, or similar quality action. If you choose an action not listed, it would be best to contact the Membership Committee for approval. We will not disqualify any quality action.
Rifle work is not a requirement. We would like to see fine double shotguns, as well as muzzleloader work. The Guild does not discourage individuality, so if you do quality work of a type not included on this document, contact the Membership Committee.
Should you do work related to custom gunmaking, but which does not fall under the categories of metalsmith, stockmaker or engraver, you may apply for membership under a special category. Again, contact the Membership Committee for information. It is our function to aid you in joining the Guild.
Above all,the examples MUST function perfectly. This is CUSTOM work,which means superb function as well as esthetics. The applicant will submit along with the barrelled actions,a full magazine of dummy cartridges for function testing.
In the following list each item must be wholly made and installed by the applicant. We realize that, in the every day operation of your business, you may purchase many of these items, rather than make them from raw stock. However, for purposes of acceptance into the Guild, it is necessary that the members see YOUR abilities You should select items from this list to total a minimum of 100 points for the two examples submitted.
Other items, designed by you, may be added subject to acceptance by the Membership Committee. If you plan to submit any items not on this list, please contact the Membership Committee as soon as possible for a ruling.

Item Points

1. Complete interior polish of action 4*
2. Complete exterior grind & polish of action 8*
3. Barrel: Turn, fit, chamber, headspace, polish, crown,
ripple free, safe contour 10*
4. Bolt handle (weld on) 4**
5. Quarter rib, with sight or sights 10***
6. Rear sight base, band, soldered, or screwed to barrel,
with sight or sights 6
7. Barrel band front ramp with sight and hood 8
8. Scope rings 10
9. Scope bases 6
10. Open rear sight, simple standing leaf 1
11. Open rear sight with one standing, one folding leaf 4
12. Shorten or lengthen bolt action 14
13. Open action for long magnum 6
14. Open action for short magnum 4
15. Integral square bridges (per bridge) 6
16. Safety: tang, recessed tang or bolt shroud 8
17. Checker bolt knob, at least two panels 2
18. Reshape rear tang 1
19. Blind rear tang screw hole 1
20. Alter bolt stop and checker or serrate 1
21. New bottom metal 12
22. Modify 1909 Argentine bottom metal (or similar), straddle
floor plate, reshape trigger bow, lengthen box if
necessary, polish 6
23. New magazine follower 4
24. Barrel: Octagon, integral machined ramp, sling lug, rear
ACGG Regular Membership Application __________Version date: 3/2010__________Page 9 of 12
sight base, quarter rib, etc. Submit description or
sketch to Membership Committee for evaluation
25. Sling swivel base, band type 4
26. Sling swivel base, soldered to barrel 3
27. Front ramp with sight and hood 4
28. Auxiliary recoil lug on barrel 2
29. Bush breech block (single shot) 4
30. Rimless extraction conversion (single shot) 8
31. Short tang conversion (single shot) 8
32. Slow rust blue barreled action after stocking 6
* Work must be done on each example.
** Work must be done on bolt action examples.
*** Must be done on at least one barreled action.
All slotted screws must be indexed with slots parallel to the length of the firearm (north-south screws).
Please submit a list of those operations entirely done by the applicant. Something similar to the following example:
EXAMPLE
Applicant presents the following work on a 98 Mauser: Points
1. Complete interior polish of action 4*
2. Complete exterior grind & polish of action 8*
3. Install barrel 10*
5. Quarter rib 10*** 4. Bolt handle 4**
14. Open action for short magnum 4
16. Bolt shroud safety 8
17. Checker bolt knob, at least two panels 2
19. Blind rear tang screw hole 1
20. Alter bolt stop 1
22. Modify 1909 Argentine bottom metal 6 25. Sling swivel base, band type 4
7. Barrel band front ramp with sight and hood 8 28. Auxiliary recoil lug 2 9. Scope bases 6 Total points, Mauser barreled action 78
Second barreled action, Ruger #1
1. Complete interior polish of action 4*
2. Complete exterior grind and polish of action 8*
3. Install barrel 10*
16. Safety, tang, recessed tang, or bolt shroud 8
Total points, Ruger #1 barreled action 30

The total for these two examples is 108points. The points assigned to each item are the minimum you will be credited with. The Membership Committee may credit you with more points for extra effort or more detailed work. To be on the safe side, do not count on extra credit. Make very sure that your two examples total at least the minimum 100 points.
The Membership Committee may disqualify any work which we feel is unsafe.

Remember that the point system details only the quantity of work required. Quality of fit, soldering, welding, shaping, detailing, polish, function, and general aesthetic value are the most important criteria on which you will be judged.


ACGG Regular Membership Application __________Version date: 3/2010__________Page 10 of 12

I do not believe I ever came across a minimum standard in print. I just did the very best work I could do and leaned on the 3 gentlemen I showed my work to in order to get the level of my work up to par. I have found my fellow members to be helpful and encouraging. We want to see the Guild grow with new members. If you are really interested, find a member that you can visit and bring some work by for a critique. Become an associate member, get Gunmaker along with the associate membership and come to either Reno or Dallas SCI this year. The one word of advice I will offer is to start on your projects early.
Steve

quote:

"The applicant must be willing to make two masterpiece quality barreled actions especially for viewing.
The applicant is advised that acceptance or rejection for membership is almost entirely determined by the quality of these two pieces."

This indicates minimum metalsmith standard/quality required for entry[well, at least ACGG terminology for such].
Yet I don't know how the ACGG actually defines the term "masterpiece quality".

Originally, the term masterpiece referred to a piece of work produced by an apprentice or journeyman aspiring to become a master craftsman in the old medieval European guild system. His fitness[proof of competence]to qualify for guild membership was judged partially by the Masterpiece, and if he was successful, it was retained by the guild. Great care was therefore taken to produce a fine piece in whatever the craft was, whether confectionery, painting, goldsmithing, knifemaking, or many other trades.

I'm going to repeat SKB recommendation to go to the show, you will see what they mean by masterpiece quality. I believe that the quality of the work is what they are judging, there is a list of what they expect, if it is all done well then high points, I expect if done poorly then low/no points.

How could somebody even describe a standard of work on this? You'd have to have pictures and show examples, which I think then defeats the purpose of the examination by basically giving the applicant opportunity to copy what is already judged as quality work (if they're able) versus their execution of the required operation in their own style and at their skill level.

let's take number 7 the barrel band front ramp with sight and hood. you could do that a few ways right? They're saying it has to be done, and completing it gets those minimum points, but I'm sure if you do a screw on style, chunky looking front sight that's unseemly tall you'd get less points than if you lapped in and soldered a front site, with radiused sides, stippled, with a hand removable hood with locking detent and a silver bead with flip over ivory sight to it.

After your first post though I'd sure hope it's not an old boys club cause I'm not sure your tone would be the right way to become one of them.

Red

Trax, are you wanting to join the Guild?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dago Red:
I'm going to repeat SKB recommendation to go to the show, you will see what they mean by masterpiece quality. I believe that the quality of the work is what they are judging, there is a list of what they expect, if it is all done well then high points, I expect if done poorly then low/no points.

Ive been to ACGG show. I noticed the variation in quality from different persons.
There was some super fantastic work, and some noticeably lesser grade stuff.
Clearly they all made the grade for entry. However,the lower level work was not necessarily indicative of the minimum standard required, nor do I know how far off it was from being so.
Id like to see examples of work that just scrap in to meeting the minimum quality required.
I didn't consider all the work I viewed at ACGG as being an example of a masterpiece .

How could somebody even describe a standard of work on this? You'd have to have pictures and show examples, which I think then defeats the purpose of the examination by basically giving the applicant opportunity to copy what is already judged as quality work (if they're able) versus their execution of the required operation in their own style and at their skill level.

Don't the apppointed examiners already have clear well entrenched ideas/concepts in their minds of whats minimally acceptable in quality?
If you asked them what was wrong with the quality of ones work, I'm sure they could find the proper words to describe the aesthetic &/or technical reasons to you. If one is capable of expressing verbally as to why it falls short/whats required, then, surely one can put criteria in print, as to whats minimally required.

Whats so wrong with the idea of the Guild having a physical sample of minimum quality requirements, and giving someone the chance to duplicate[improve if willing or capable] such for entry?...Thats how many proff./apprentices/tradesmen are taught and examined in numerous different fields.

A smith may not be interested in creating his own highly individualistic style in the beginning or even after, He may simply be interested in duplicating existing well established & accepted style(s),[eg:authentic early Rigby magnum mauser concept]
A potential member is only required to meet minimum standard for entry,although encouraged to strive, he's under no obligation to go higher in standard whether capable or not. Let that be his own choice.
After all, the Guild does not endorse anyone for proven skill levels above the minimum(s) required for initial entry.

After your first post though I'd sure hope it's not an old boys club cause I'm not sure your tone would be the right way to become one of them.

Possibly, and possibly thats why some very talented & very successful smiths choose not to be part of the ACGG. Yet they still seem to be extremely successful independent individuals. Some may view that as a loss to the ACGG. Then again, some may choose to operate with no affiliation to ACGG, for no other reason than thats the way they like it.

quote:

Originally posted by mad_jack02:
Trax, are you wanting to join the Guild?

HAH! He's a troll, always trying to stir up hate and discontent. Apparently he has no life.

He doesn't know all that much about guns either.
Regards, Joe

Trax; having been an ACGG member for several years and getting to know the "system" better....here goes my opinion. The Guild was established to provide a venue for the continuance of Custom Gunmaking in the USA and now North America. The level of work acceptable for entry level has evolved over the years. Jim Coffin (one of my mentors) said that he would never have made the Guild with the quality of the work he presented 25 years eariler (Jim died last year). His mentor was Al Biesen, who is recognized nationally as one of the better Custom stockmakers/gunmakers. The bar has risen each year as the quality of the work demanded by the American public became more discriminating. The minimum level accepted....as you asked....has changed over the years. Again you ask, how does one determine what is minimun level.......by asking you to make a determination what is your BEST level and present it to the voting membership. The new requirements of the applicant having TWO signature members(of the three signatures needed) being of the catagory you are are submitting work for acceptance to.....helps the applicant establish working knowledge of what is and is not acceptable for application entry level work. It also places on the members, the responsiblity of making sure the applicant is up to entry level work!

It has been bantered about that just meeting the minimum level for entry is good enough and therefore NOT one's best effort will get one by....that is not the level of craftsmanship desired. Yes, we all aspire to get better at our craft. We also are challenged by the old and NEW members who bring better and better examples of work for inspection. If you plan on becoming a member, please know that the Guild is not designed to increase your business bottom line...although it helps...IF you maintain good business practices and customer service. I have long wondered why people would become members and then leave after a few years.....the reasons vary. As in any organization of talented peple there will be differences of opinons. Our greatest strength is in our differences and opinions! Though it causes ruffled feathers at times....each person creates a stronger Guild by showing the next generation of Custom Gunmakers what is available and what can be done to continue and improve the craft of Custom Gunmaking. I have learned that our example of the past 27 years has created an increased interest in Custom Gunmaking in Germany and Europe so that the ACGG is the standard to watch instead of the other way around. That information came from a German born member of the ACGG who was one of my signers. His signature(and the Guild) meant so much to him that he was very insistant he would make life for me miserable if I ever embarrased him with substandard work for submission. I took the hint....I submitted my BEST for addmission. Even then, there were constructive comments made as how to better my work after I became a member in 2003. It is my goal to get better as well as pass on the knowledge given to me or learned by me so the future craftsmen/women will continue building the best Custom Guns available. Again, this is MY oppinion and not representative of any part of the ACGG Organization leadership.

Dennis,
thanks...that was helpful.

It seems like there is a lot of mental masturbation in regards to ACGG. It seems pretty simple to me, a member has shown he is capable of work judged to meet standards set by the peer group he wishes to join. Obviously, like in any group, some are better than others, some likely put forth their best effort on their projects presented for acceptance and their day to day work is generally less detailed while others strive to always improve. People are people regardless of their profession. The efforts to nit-pick this group seems petty in most cases.

Considering ACGG entry rifles are judged much on the finer detailed quality of the build, wanting to know more information about such mimimum fine details/standards required in the build, seems not unreasonable.
Do they not sometimes in a kindly way "nit pick" {constructively criticize/scrutinize} a rifle when it is submitted for inspection?
and because ACGG are constantly raising the bar, the positive polite "nit picking" inspection process has gradually become more and more detailed.

dempsey summation is spot on IMO. Mostly MM here, a visit to the show would be simple enough.

But when it comes to voting on new members, I am not kind in my nit-picking, nor have I been for the past 25 years.

Trax
Objective standards for cosmetics is pretty much a never ending discussion.
The only way to be happy is to find someone's work that you like consistently. If you are a big enough PIA you will still not be happy.

Your missing the point of the enquiry , I want to to know the minimum standard accepted by the Guild/where the bar is set [at this present time].

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Trax
If you are a big enough PIA you will still not be happy.

Trax, lemme grab a quote from SR

What cant you grasp from the replies to the thread you've started?

I think JD's post about summed it up for all of us.

quote:

Originally posted by cmfic1:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Trax
If you are a big enough PIA you will still not be happy.

Trax, lemme grab a quote from SR

What cant you grasp from the replies to the thread you've started?

I think JD's post about summed it up for all of us.

JD is the same guy who said ACGG charter member Duane Wiebes bolt welding didnt make the grade of what expected in a "best quality rifle".
He said he was astounded,ashamed and embarrassed by Duanes [dissapointing?] standard of work as an ACGG member-prof.craftsman.

You also agree with JD on this?
You think ACGG agrees with JD?
You think JD speaks for everyone?
You think Duane needs to strive more to meet JDs' expectation/mimimum standard?
Its ok to be aware of the details of JDs' minimum standards, but you have issue with me wanting to know the details of minimum standards for ACGG?

Valid questions Trax.
I don't have a dog up for show in the parade, but have seen similar membership audit processes like this before.
basically there are 2 acceptance standards
the 2 rifles need to be presented with a minimum of 100points based on "scope of work"
then the work is judged on quality & style of workmanship for actual accreditation.
The message is pretty clear in the responses of guild members in the thread that the style needs to be to contemporary taste standards OF THE MEMBERSHIP and then also of master craftsman standard, hence the repeated references to observe works presented for accreditation .
In basic principle I would have expected a guild member to have responded not in words , but by provision of maybe high resolution pics of the last 10 rifles accepted as presented for membership & accepted........as the next best thing to attending an event.

Such things as judging rear sight placement on style can lead to a rifle built to eyesight requirements of long vision & executed perfectly, potentially being poorly marked as being 'out of style & proportion' by another, in ignorance of it being perfectly functional & required by the customer & user, who well may be the builder himself.

ditto things like a safety dimple being painted blue, because the customer is 'red' colourblind, but can see blue perfectly & wants it luminous blue.


such potential issues can only be assessed by viewing a significant body of both accepted & declined work.

This says that acceptance pieces should not be built for a customer, but built to a style that is contemporarily acceptable to the membership, with workmanship that is of a standard contemporarily acceptable to the membership.

The hard part is determining what those contemporary standards are , as only the 'scope of work' is specified & the acceptance levels are anecdotal.

Such systems tend to:-
- requiring time as a "junior" for a while.
( preferentially attending meetings with head bowed in the presence of your masters & eyes wide with amazement of their skills....... )
- mentorship by at least 2 other members
( so you learn what is acceptable style &
workmanship......no new age stuff here ) .
- most importantly for the prospective member
........choosing the 2 mentors who will sign off on his/her application for accreditation.

such accreditation systems ARE influenced by WHO you know.
ie
the members judging your work will probably not "know" you , but will know the 2 members who signed off on your work & application.......if you have the luxury of choosing them carefully.
ie
you have to be a "good chap" to get the better mentors & signatories for your membership application.

Many are the excellent craftsmen who have been 'blackballed' by such accreditation systems throughout history.

Many are the 'master craftsmen ' members who have abused their role in accreditation systems for reasons well outside workmanship standards.
........throughout history.

Unbiased accreditation systems of workmanship include anecdotal assessment a minority of the scorecard and provide the detail of workmanship criteria for every component of the 'scope of work' to be assessed.

Is it really that hard to qualify the minimum standards required for each component in the "scope of work" pointscore list.

Trax, you're a troll.

Show us a picture of your smiling face behind one, JUST ONE custom rifle that you've either built or commissioned!

No? I'm not surprised.
Waiting sceptically, Joe

This thread should just die---the Troll who started it is a JOI who has nothing better to do than run around and pull his pants down and yell look at me!

Jezzz some people just have no clue....

Mr Trax, one does not discuss one's client's minimum standards. I hope you understand?