I've read numerous places over the years that kiln dried blanks are a no-no for a variety of reasons. On the other hand, also read that some very good instrument builders commonly use kiln dried material which it seems would be even more critical. In my furniture building, I've seen very little problems with kiln dried, especially with quarter sawn material. would like to hear opinions. thank you.

Do you agree that cured and dried are 2 different things? The wood that I get from Roger Vardy is at least dried for 10years.

First I "feel" that air dried has a richer color. I don't know if I have ever used kiln dried wood for a stock. I have used it making furniture. I think it is harder to work and easier to chip. Documentation nope. Just my feeling.

I stole this comparison:::

Why is air dried wood better?



More and more small-shop woodworkers are discovering that they prefer to work with well air dried hardwoods. This is, of course, contrary to the conventional wisdom promoted by the lumber industry for the last century.
Let’s not forget, however, that much of the world’s finest furniture was made before kiln drying technology was developed. Did those makers have secrets that we don’t know today? Not at all.
When we say well air dried lumber, what is involved? This is certainly not green lumber. In fact there is a considerable investment of time and science in the preparation of good air dried lumber. But the results are worth it. So then, just why is air dried wood superior?
•There are no internal tensions “baked” into the wood. How many times have you ripped a board, only to have it clamp down on the sawblade, or twist off in some unexpected direction? Doesn’t happen with air-dried lumber.
•Kiln dried wood is brittler and much more prone to chipping out when worked with hand tools or powered knife tools. A nice piece of air-dried cherry or walnut is a revelation to stroke with a hand plane or spokeshave.
•Kiln dried wood has most often lost as much as 20% of its color. Even when not “steamed”, the high temperatures experienced kill some of the subtler color features of the grain.
•Unless kiln dried lumber is kept in a fully climate-controlled building from the moment it comes out of the kiln, it will quickly re-absorb moisture from the ambient air, thus returning to the same moisture content as properly air-dried lumber. But the internal tensions, brittleness, and lack of color remain. How many lumber yards do you know of that keep their lumber in closed and air-conditioned buildings?

Typically, it is said that lumber must dry a year for every inch of thickness. My preferred formula is two summers for the first inch of thickness, then another year for each additional inch of thickness. Furthermore, planks thicker than 12/4 should season yet another year. Thus a 16/4 plank would take a minimum of 5 ½ years to be ready to use. All fine hardwood trees should be felled in the winter, when the sap is down, so that the first nominal year is usually more like a year and a half.

I am told that almost all, if not all, factory stocks by the majors are kiln dried. Seems they hold up fairly well.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I am told that almost all, if not all, factory stocks by the majors are kiln dried. Seems they hold up fairly well.

My opinion and only that....probably has as much to do with grain structure, particularly through the wrist, as anything else. All other things being equal, Paul's post makes absolutely good sense. I don't think the point is so much one of durability, but workability and color.

Good Morning;

While working at Fajen, Inc. we used thousands of board feet of kiln dried lumber for Commercial Contracts with Weatherby, Savage, and Winchester. All of the wood was kiln dried. However, our scrap rate was 45% as the internal structure of the Black Walnut was disrupted and honeycombed from stresses generated during the kiln drying process. There were many days Dennis Sumner(Production Warehouse Manager) rejected many blanks cut from the fletchings. We burned huge piles of wood each week from the rejected material(Company policy). I have one Mauser blank so full of holes from one of these cuts that I have a pattern fully solid because I filled all of the holes with Acraglass over a three year period. Used all of my left over material made to repair other gunstocks. In my experience, kiln dried wood loses about half of it's natural color due to steam leaching out the minerals. Fajen had a kiln and during its operation the water removed was really dirty. Air dried wood was the only kind used for the Custom Shop and all of it was no less than three years dry before it was available for usage. It mattered not what species of wood was used.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
Good Morning;

While working at Fajen, Inc. we used thousands of board feet of kiln dried lumber for Commercial Contracts with Weatherby, Savage, and Winchester. All of the wood was kiln dried. However, our scrap rate was 45% as the internal structure of the Black Walnut was disrupted and honeycombed from stresses generated during the kiln drying process. There were many days Dennis Sumner(Production Warehouse Manager) rejected many blanks cut from the fletchings. We burned huge piles of wood each week from the rejected material(Company policy). I have one Mauser blank so full of holes from one of these cuts that I have a pattern fully solid because I filled all of the holes with Acraglass over a three year period. Used all of my left over material made to repair other gunstocks. In my experience, kiln dried wood loses about half of it's natural color due to steam leaching out the minerals. Fajen had a kiln and during its operation the water removed was really dirty. Air dried wood was the only kind used for the Custom Shop and all of it was no less than three years dry before it was available for usage. It mattered not what species of wood was used.

Very interesting. Seems like the only thing to commend kiln drying is expediency.

I matters a lot just how it's kiln dried ! For a certain type , size, moisture content you have a recipe for drying . Many individuals have sent a 2.5" thick stock blank to a kiln only to have the kiln put the blank in with 1" boards --guaranteed failure ! Are you going to do it fast or dry it properly ?
By the way, always use a water proof finish including inside the barrel channel. One of my CST rifles was fine in CO but curved a bit when brought to humid NY state ! [still shot straight ! ]
The microwave system for drying though never becoming used took water from the end grain which is how the water originally got into the wood ! That was a good point !
Patience is a good thing to have when drying no matter how it's done.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
Good Morning;

While working at Fajen, Inc. we used thousands of board feet of kiln dried lumber for Commercial Contracts with Weatherby, Savage, and Winchester. All of the wood was kiln dried. However, our scrap rate was 45% as the internal structure of the Black Walnut was disrupted and honeycombed from stresses generated during the kiln drying process. There were many days Dennis Sumner(Production Warehouse Manager) rejected many blanks cut from the fletchings. We burned huge piles of wood each week from the rejected material(Company policy). I have one Mauser blank so full of holes from one of these cuts that I have a pattern fully solid because I filled all of the holes with Acraglass over a three year period. Used all of my left over material made to repair other gunstocks. In my experience, kiln dried wood loses about half of it's natural color due to steam leaching out the minerals. Fajen had a kiln and during its operation the water removed was really dirty. Air dried wood was the only kind used for the Custom Shop and all of it was no less than three years dry before it was available for usage. It mattered not what species of wood was used.

I have been playing with blanks since 1993.

I was told by the old timers that air dry is best, but with no explaination.

Thanks Dennis for your post: It is the best answer yet that I have seen!!!!


My collection of blanks were obtained in 1994, all air cured, and are properly stored and still curing with sealed ends. Every time I cut into one to make a stock I realize how nice they are to work with and I have yet to find an internal flaw. Plus no warping or movement after they are carved on the duplicator.

Great posts on this forum from some very knowledgeable and experienced people.
As for the commercial stock wood business, I had no idea.
45% reject rate. is crazy. Burned up,,,, ouch. I realize it would be bad PR to allow a mfgr to have any association with anything defective. I get that. Still a waste.



.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
Good Morning;

While working at Fajen, Inc. we used thousands of board feet of kiln dried lumber for Commercial Contracts with Weatherby, Savage, and Winchester. All of the wood was kiln dried. However, our scrap rate was 45% as the internal structure of the Black Walnut was disrupted and honeycombed from stresses generated during the kiln drying process. There were many days Dennis Sumner(Production Warehouse Manager) rejected many blanks cut from the fletchings. We burned huge piles of wood each week from the rejected material(Company policy). I have one Mauser blank so full of holes from one of these cuts that I have a pattern fully solid because I filled all of the holes with Acraglass over a three year period. Used all of my left over material made to repair other gunstocks. In my experience, kiln dried wood loses about half of it's natural color due to steam leaching out the minerals. Fajen had a kiln and during its operation the water removed was really dirty. Air dried wood was the only kind used for the Custom Shop and all of it was no less than three years dry before it was available for usage. It mattered not what species of wood was used.

As an amateur woodworker and furniture maker, I am always suspicious of kiln dried hardwoods. Its how it was done that matters. When given my druthers, i would always rather have naturally dried 4/4 or 6/4 lumber that was properly stickered and end sealed. Kiln dried I always bought from other furniture makers who knew how to dry properly.

I hear Browning came up with a fast way to dry blanks by using salt.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I hear Browning came up with a fast way to dry blanks by using salt.

You are funny man, Gren...

Actually had another (20th today) strange thought...I build refrigerated equipment and use vacuum to pull moisture & all non-condensable gasses out of the refrigeration systems. Seems to me you could do the same with wood by putting it in a large enclosure and pulling a decent (100 micron or so) vacuum on it for a length of time.

It would be a small batch process and I have no idea of the process duration. Wonder if anyone uses this process?

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
Good Morning;

While working at Fajen, Inc. we used thousands of board feet of kiln dried lumber for Commercial Contracts with Weatherby, Savage, and Winchester. All of the wood was kiln dried. However, our scrap rate was 45% as the internal structure of the Black Walnut was disrupted and honeycombed from stresses generated during the kiln drying process. There were many days Dennis Sumner(Production Warehouse Manager) rejected many blanks cut from the fletchings. We burned huge piles of wood each week from the rejected material(Company policy). I have one Mauser blank so full of holes from one of these cuts that I have a pattern fully solid because I filled all of the holes with Acraglass over a three year period. Used all of my left over material made to repair other gunstocks. In my experience, kiln dried wood loses about half of it's natural color due to steam leaching out the minerals. Fajen had a kiln and during its operation the water removed was really dirty. Air dried wood was the only kind used for the Custom Shop and all of it was no less than three years dry before it was available for usage. It mattered not what species of wood was used.

Dennis Earl Smith you said air dried was 36 months at Fajens. I have heard and was taught in smithing school the least being 30 months. The older the better but what is your take on how many months to stabilize. I have seen 3 year old wood move a couple of times and one move from a 12 year old stock, all from air dried blanks. I didn't personally dry them...was on their word. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Dulltool17:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I hear Browning came up with a fast way to dry blanks by using salt.

You are funny man, Gren...

Actually had another (20th today) strange thought...I build refrigerated equipment and use vacuum to pull moisture & all non-condensable gasses out of the refrigeration systems. Seems to me you could do the same with wood by putting it in a large enclosure and pulling a decent (100 micron or so) vacuum on it for a length of time.

It would be a small batch process and I have no idea of the process duration. Wonder if anyone uses this process?

This exists already. The tone wood guy near me has a vacuum kiln about 20 feet long. I do not like the looks of the wood that comes out of the kiln.

Tone wood: High figured wood veneer used for guitars, violins, etc.

Some cryogenics are done under a vacuum.

quote:

Dennis Earl Smith you said air dried was 36 months at Fajens. I have heard and was taught in smithing school the least being 30 months. The older the better but what is your take on how many months to stabilize. I have seen 3 year old wood move a couple of times and one move from a 12 year old stock, all from air dried blanks. I didn't personally dry them...was on their word. Thanks!

Depends on ambient conditions.

Some of my blanks were air cured in Idaho for 3 years. 5 to 6 percent moisture when I received them.

Out where I live in the Pacific NW 10 percent is about as low as you can obtain air drying.

Here ya go, 20 years cure:



If you are making stocks from blanks a good moisture meter is a wise investment.

Still wondering why some wood people say dry doesn't mean it's cured. I did check with Roger Vardy. Roger sells no wood unless he has air dried it at his facility for 12 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I hear Browning came up with a fast way to dry blanks by using salt.

thanks to all for sharing your experience. I've experienced the same thing as woodhunter. Had some 4/4 oak air-drying using stickers in my garage for 3 years. I was ready to use it for interior trim and wanted to know what the moisture percent was. So took it to a small mill that had a moisture meter. I told the owner it had been drying for 3 years: he said he'd check it but could tell me already what it would be: 12-13% which was exactly what the meter showed. He said it would never get any drier in our environment (upper mid-west) no matter how long I left it drying.

My reason for asking is that we have a lot of very nice curly maple cut in the region which is very affordable, but thus-far, I've only found suppliers who kiln dry. I build furniture, but want to do a stock for a working rifle. With my limited stock building experience, I don't want to convert a $200.- $300. minimum blank to firewood. So a stick of nice curly for $50.-$60. is rather attractive.

Most of the wood that was in the Warehouse for the Custom Shop had been purchased long before the 3 year period mentioned.

Larry Potterfield had a lot of inventory on hand when he bought the business in 1992. Each year wood was purchased from wood sellers and each year the pallets of wood were graded and then put on shelving that reached into the air about 25 ft. Used a forklift to get to those when needed. I got to inventory the wood twice.

Lots of wood high up that was at the three year or less stage. None of it was used in the plant. It was sold at auction or to several private buyers during the closure procedure. We used the 3 yr old stuff for lower grade semi-inletted stocks for sale to clients all over the USA. If I could help it, I pulled 4 yrs old wood for the Custom Shop stocks made completely to order by clients. Forend wood was the hardest to match up and make sure it was dry. I did have a moisture meter to use when I needed it. (I have a Wagner microwave meter which goes 3/4" depth into the wood for a reading. No pin holes to fill.)

I agree about the PNW moisture readings. I had all of my wood to 8 Percent moisture before I moved to MO to work for Fajen, Inc. One week move across the USA and the moisture content went to 18% just being in the truck!

I have seen discussions like these several times before and it always left me wondering about moisture content and what that really means.

Suppose I order a custom rifle from a company in Arizona and they pick a very old stockblank with a moisture content of 8%. It has been stored in a climatically controlled environment - drying in stacks inside a heated and air conditioned warehouse.

The blank must come out of the warehouse and goes to the makers shop. The climate just changed. The stock is shaped, sanded, sealed, and finished. Then it ships to Washington state, the "evergreen" state, where Washingtonians don't tan, they rust. The humidity is significantly higher than the drying warehouse. The temperature changes are sever compared to a thermostatically controlled warehouse.

The rifle goes in and out of a gun safe over a period of years, altering regularly between a nice warm, cozy environment and a cold, wet environment.

The rifle gets sold to a person in Florida. It spends the next several years in a hot, steamy environment.

The wood is finished but that cannot possibly stop all movement of moisture in and out of the wood. Hasn't the moisture content of the wood gone all over the chart? If that is to make it crack then why doesn't it crack? If that is to cause severe warping then why doesn't it warp severely? Is there really any meaningful difference in a moisture content of 8%, 12%, or 16%? Can someone explain what is going on with that wood? Why must wood be at 8% moisture before shaping if it is just going to go back to 15% once in the hands of the user?

Properly sealed wood inside and out will not be subject to movement at all. Cecil Fredi has hunted a Myrtlewood stocked gun all over the world and it has not moved in 30 years. Myrtlewood is one of the most sensitive wood species to moisture I know of.

I used to use Nelsonite to stabilize wood and seemed to work well. But that was for divided light door fronts and other more delicate pieces. Don't know as you would need it for a gun stock. Goes on well...no color change and doesn't raise grain to speak of.

Dennis Earl Smith

That's kind of what I was thinking. I have blanks from the west coast and some from the east coast sent here to north Oklahoma. If I have a problem with it is usually bowed, but once settled to this area for a few years and then stocked and finished they haven't moved. Yes even a finished stock will take on moisture but done right and sealed well seems to solve that problem. My stocks have not moved...but I haven't had them all over the world either. Thanks for the reply!

Here you go: Bowed!

The blank was cut straight. Over some 20 years in the curing shed it took on a bow. Luckily the stock being cut has 3/8" cast off, which almost perfectly matched the bow. No movement after carving. This is Pacific Big leaf maple.

I carve the stocks 1/8" oversize on all dimensions, then hang vertically from the shop ceiling for 2 weeks or more before bringing down to final size. Have not had any problems with wood movement yet.

Oregon walnut from the Salem area with about a 20 year cure. One day I will cut the slabs into blanks and maybe carve a stock.

Woodhunter,

How many blanks would you expect to get out of those 3 slabs? I am curious.

Bill

woodhunter: just curious: is the blank in your machine flat sawn or quarter sawn?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill V:
Woodhunter,

How many blanks would you expect to get out of those 3 slabs? I am curious.

Bill

I have scooted the plexiglass templates around on the slabs and come up with maybe five one piece blanks and a couple of two piece. Future projects!

quote:

Originally posted by devere:
woodhunter: just curious: is the blank in your machine flat sawn or quarter sawn?

More pics of the same blank:





Mostly flat sawn:



They look like this when sawn: Note the direction of the tiger stripe. The wrinkle surface is just under the bark when the tree is standing. Not all trees have good grain: Back when we were cruising timberland looking for good maple, you could see the wrinkle on the bark. This indicates good grain waiting for you once the tree was dropped. The good grain on the trees (Pacific Big Leaf Maple) is somewhat rare, and given the fact that there are not a lot of maples in the Fir/Hemlock forests, finding the trees with good grain is a real treat.



Depending on how you saw the log, you will have good tiger stripe or good flame pattern:

thank you woodhunter. In my furniture building, I've found 1/4 sawn to be much more stable than flat-sawn. It seems like that would be the case with stock blanks as well, but no experience with them.

Thanks Woodhunter for the photos and most interesting info. Beautiful wood by the way.

Bill

Thanks for the interesting info.

I have quite a few Big Leaf Maple. Most are nearing the ends of their lives. Some of the trees have vast areas covered in what look to me like burl, many feet of it in spots. Some nearly all around the tree. It is like your bumps in the photo but bigger. Much of it is up ten or twenty feet from the ground but on trunks that are still about 30" in diameter at those places. Can these higher areas be used or is the only good part of the tree the part just above the roots?

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:

I have had a personal pallet of Turkish walnut for some years and its down to the two best blanks..They will be about 6% is my guess, hard as woodpecker lips..I will have them turned to my pattern, (Jack Haugh or Ralph Martini copies and a combo of both) and hang them for 6 months to see if they move..

The reason Ive never gone to platic and stainless steel is I have hunted the world over and never have I had a custom wood stock move..Wood and rust blue and Johnson Wax has worked for me.

I don't recall ever having a factory stock move, don't think so, why that is I have no idea. I don't think they are cured all that well..most were glass beaded I think...I have a ver early near worn out mod. 70 pre 64 been used so much the checkering is worn slick, its never moved..I just bought another and don't believe its moved...maybe luck? maybe this wood being unstable is one of those gun world larks, passed on until it must be true..????

I can't speak for walnut; my experience has been with mesquite. I kiln dried several 3" slabs for 2 months (rule is 1" per month, but the place I used does 2 month batches - they are a raw lumber and furniture company). It then set in my garage for another 16 months. I then cut down to some usable sizes and sent out for a semi-inlet stock (lesson learned from my last project - I will start with a pattern stock from now on, much easier, and then send to a duplicator).

I've made one rifle stock so far with the mesquite, a 404 J, in 2014. It as been stable from that time. I have two more mesquite semi-inlet blanks from 2014, one for another Enfield (35 Whelen) and one for a Mauser 98 (it was originally targeted for a FN Mauser 7mm Mag, now I might use it for my 458 Whitworth to increase the weight over the current stock).

I believe the mesquite log (6'x2') I started with was salvaged from underwater.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill V:
Thanks Woodhunter for the photos and most interesting info. Beautiful wood by the way.

Bill

Lots of folks hate maple but I like working with it, besides, I have more than a lifetime supply. Looks cool on a long range varminter or a bench rest gun.

My Walnut blank collection will maybe take care of 10 rifles, far more blanks than I need.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I can't speak for walnut; my experience has been with mesquite. I kiln dried several 3" slabs for 2 months (rule is 1" per month, but the place I used does 2 month batches - they are a raw lumber and furniture company). It then set in my garage for another 16 months. I then cut down to some usable sizes and sent out for a semi-inlet stock (lesson learned from my last project - I will start with a pattern stock from now on, much easier, and then send to a duplicator).

I've made one rifle stock so far with the mesquite, a 404 J, in 2014. It as been stable from that time. I have two more mesquite semi-inlet blanks from 2014, one for another Enfield (35 Whelen) and one for a Mauser 98 (it was originally targeted for a FN Mauser 7mm Mag, now I might use it for my 458 Whitworth to increase the weight over the current stock).

I believe the mesquite log (6'x2') I started with was salvaged from underwater.

Ahh Mesquite. Would love to get my hands on some.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Thanks for the interesting info.

I have quite a few Big Leaf Maple. Most are nearing the ends of their lives. Some of the trees have vast areas covered in what look to me like burl, many feet of it in spots. Some nearly all around the tree. It is like your bumps in the photo but bigger. Much of it is up ten or twenty feet from the ground but on trunks that are still about 30" in diameter at those places. Can these higher areas be used or is the only good part of the tree the part just above the roots?

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:

This tree was about 40 inches at the butt. In the photo the limbs are being sawn up. About 24 inches in diameter. The grain went all the way through.

We have found that the bet grain comes from a stressed tree, one that is hanging over a steep slope and receives a lot of wind during our Pacific NW storms.



23 years ago, Washington's North Olympic Peninsula.

Okay. Here is a pretty bumpy one.

If I were to cut this down what length slabs should I cut and how thick should I cut them?

Should I let the trunk sections age first or go right to making slabs? If I should wait to cut slabs, how long?

Once I cut slabs should I seal them in any way?

The butt of the rifle is about 7' above the ground. If you look closely you can see it in the top photo as well.