Although I know nothing about custom rifles, I cannot help but contrast some of the the comments on the Rigby/Blaser thread with the, to me, superb work exhibited by Jim Kobe, The Jensen Rifle Company, and by reference, D"Arcy Echols. Enfieldspares had it right, I think! We should be giving these guys our work, instead of "buying" a name. Just my $0.02.
Peter.

Without question, some of the finest custom rifles ever made are being produced in our time. The skill of today's makers combined with modern machining methods and materials makes for an impressive product.

I'm not taking anything away from the English or Continental gunmakers of the "Golden Age": the makers of yesteryear produced incredibly fine rifles and created classic styles that have stood the test of time. That being said, I'm sure some of those old makers would be impressed with some of the rifles coming out of the shops of today's best gunmakers. For my money, small shops like Wiebe, Echols, Martini, etc. are the way to go.

quote:

Peter: We should be giving these guys our work, instead of "buying" a name.

And at a fraction of the price.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
Without question, some of the finest custom rifles ever made are being produced in our time. The skill of today's makers combined with modern machining methods and materials makes for an impressive product.

I'm not taking anything away from the English or Continental gunmakers of the "Golden Age": the makers of yesteryear produced incredibly fine rifles and created classic styles that have stood the test of time. That being said, I'm sure some of those old makers would be impressed with some of the rifles coming out of the shops of today's best gunmakers For my money, small shops like Wiebe, Echols, Martini, etc. are the way to go.

Very true, and on the other hand most of the old English makers would be appalled at what has come out of the same shops in recent years.

There have been great craftsmen from all portions of the globe and during all periods of time but when you are talking about fine firearms there needs to be more than simply great craftsmanship and artistic talent. The maker needs to also have a deep understanding of what the gun is for and how it will be used. That was where the English builders of a century ago were masters - and is now why builders like D'Arcy Echols, Ralph Martini, Joe Smithson, Jerry Fisher, Lon Paul, Duane Wiebe, Reto Buehler, James Tucker and a handful of others are setting the standards.

ABSOLUTELY,POSITIVELY the truth.

I agree 100%, Phil.

Totally agree

It never ceases to amaze me how it all comes down to the great 'understanding' of the use of the rifle and somehow only the English of past have posessed this understanding. We never think this about a designer of spacecraft (very few have ACTUALLY BEEN in space, rarely about an aircraft designer,in fact the head of the Aeronautical engineering dept at the University I went too had never flown, but was one of the founders of the state gun collecting association.Let's just face it talent is talent no matter the field. Photography is my hobby and I know quite a bit about it but venture to say very feww really outstanding photographers are optical experts or camera engineers. The firearms of today are of far better materials and the design is equally as good as the past and the skill of unknown numbers of gunsmiths really equal if not exceed those of past years.

Old Model 70's and commercial Mausers, rust blued, with good Walnut and fine line checkering...

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
It never ceases to amaze me how it all comes down to the great 'understanding' of the use of the rifle and somehow only the English of past have posessed this understanding. We never think this about a designer of spacecraft (very few have ACTUALLY BEEN in space, rarely about an aircraft designer,in fact the head of the Aeronautical engineering dept at the University I went too had never flown, but was one of the founders of the state gun collecting association.Let's just face it talent is talent no matter the field. Photography is my hobby and I know quite a bit about it but venture to say very feww really outstanding photographers are optical experts or camera engineers. The firearms of today are of far better materials and the design is equally as good as the past and the skill of unknown numbers of gunsmiths really equal if not exceed those of past years.

You are correct, in that I doubt any of the best English gunbuilders had any more hunting experience than NASA engineers have in space, but they followed the lead of people who did have a lot of experience.
That is not true of all custom rifles today as you can find beautifully executed and highly artistic rifles that will not feed or function reliably.

Some rifle parts are built by shooters like triggers and actions,reloading dies etc...-especially from benchrest shooters.It takes a keen shooter and hunter to build a fine hunting rifle.

I have long wondered who ACTUALLY designed an English rifle since they actually employed what seems to me to be craftsmen and not truley accompolished 'gunsmiths'. I have to define what I believe a fully qualified 'gunsmith' to be. To me he is one who can build a custom rifle performing all tasks both wood and metal himself. Further I feel he should be able to effect repairs also. It seems that take a double rifle - while some are made by a single person - it seems the top the top names such as H&H annd Westley-
Richards,Purdey,etc were assembled from parts made by individual craftsmen both in-house and outside supplied. For example you had actioneers,barrel makers,stockers etc and they had titles as such and it stands to reason if you worked your entire career at one task you would become very proficient. I don't wish to denigrate English builders, they were, and I'm sure are superb craftsmen. But I grow increasingly weary of the continued drumming of their superiority to any other. I have seen over the years literally thousands of custom rifles that rival anything the H&H or say Westley-Richards produced in less that their highly decorated products. I have several rifles built by literal unknowns (at least to me) that I would compare to any plain 'best' rifle of English manufacture. I'm sure others can do the same. The English clientele seems to be from the upper economic tier and have more decoration than other classes would have on their rifles for general use. As a gunsmith I wwould like someone to explain in detail to me what makes a hand inletted wood stock 'better' than a properly glassbedded one. The English are also renowned for paying extreme attention to details that do not not only not show but are of questionable actual value. All this does is add unquestioned manhours to the rifles production. So to return to my original question - who actually designed the rifle. Did the salesman who took the order put it to paper (I have never seen reproductions of actual drawings made by them) or did the 'fitter' who addjusted the try gun/stock to get the dimensions. What I see from the records reproduced a just general and specific instructions such as barrel length,sights,caliber,stock specifics as to wood,etc. So again I ask 'who actually designed the rifle'. These are just ramblings of an old man so certainly feel absolutely free to have your own opinions.

zimbabwe, interesting ideas, how about we designate you "editor" of this thread - as they mostly seem to ramble on about ideas and esoterica and let the other contributors list arguable "facts" and opinions.

If your talking modern rifles made in the last 5 years by the top English firms,I think their prices are inflated. To be sure they are very traditional and will always command a premium,but the top American makers are better in every way. Comparing apples to apples? Not yet, for the rich who are always looking for ways to park their wealth and most,just buy the "name". imho

As I said they are MY ramblings and it is obvious you have no real FACTS to contribute ,only opinions which I don't even know are your own. I have no desire to be an 'editor' as I have a nephew who actually is one and I'm not crazy about the trade. While I don't in any way consider my opinions better than others I certainly consider them soundly based on many years of actual experience and knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
As I said they are MY ramblings and it is obvious you have no real FACTS to contribute ,only opinions which I don't even know are your own. I have no desire to be an 'editor' as I have a nephew who actually is one and I'm not crazy about the trade. While I don't in any way consider my opinions better than others I certainly consider them soundly based on many years of actual experience and knowledge.

I was being facetious - we are pretty much in agreement , including about editors.

It's a good thing this is about magazine rifles. DR's is a whole different animal.

I think there's a price bubble in all best grade english guns including this one. IMHO

http://www.cabelas.com/product...%3D-933&Ntt=richards

[/QUOTE]And at a fraction of the price.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. Some of these guys ask similar prices as Rigby and H&H.

I am an engineer and know a little about design and construction.

I have been studying the custom rifle business and the double rifle business for a few years.

I still struggle to understand what makes a "custom" bolt rifle worth more than a Sauer or a new Mauser or even a new HS Precision.

I understand "fit and finish" but nearly every manufacturer provides a very good product these days.

Quality control of the steel and the manufacture of the barrels is better today than 20 years ago.

I have owned and shot several (6 of varying calibers) pre-64 Winchesters and am completely unimpressed with accuracy or "fit and finish" fo these cult classics. The new ones are better built and more accurate based on my experience.

I have handled the $100,000 H&H double guns as well as Heym, Searcy and Chapuis. I can feel a slight difference in balance but they both shoot well and are relatively accurate.

So, what do you get in a custom gun? A gun very visually appealing. A gun that is relatively accurate but not bench rest accurate. A gun that should fit the shooter fairly well. Pride of ownership of possessing something unique.

All of this said, I struggle to pay the extra money to own an pretty and expensive tool.

I have a friend that just bought a $300,000 Ferrari. I drive a GMC Yukon. The Ferrari is cat quick by rough as heck and is hard to get in and out of. He won't drive it when the wind is blowing for fear of getting it scratched by dust. His oil changes cost $200. I fail to see the fun or attraction or "value" of owning something that owns the owner.

I am not bashing the custom gun folks. Enjoy what you own by all means. I just struggle to enjoy owning them.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I still struggle to understand what makes a "custom" bolt rifle worth more than a Sauer or a new Mauser or even a new HS Precision.

Let me provide the clearest possible answer using your own words:

quote:

by dogcat:
I am an engineer and know a little about design and construction.

The value of high end rifles is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. Not something they teach in engineering school.

I'm quite thankful that there are many who value attention to detail.....every detail. From an engineering perspective, ANY detail that doesn't contribute to the objective of the project is trivial.

Timex vs Rolex
Ford vs Ferrari
RosieO vs Victoria Secret Model

The engineering differences between the above examples are trivial.
The attention to detail differences are stunning.

It still boils down too simply YOUR individual value placed on each item. Art truly IS 'in the eye of the beholder'. If thepurpose of the Timex and the Rolex are merely to tell time the Timex is probably superior,in both accuracy and cost of ownership. Lest you think I have no experience I currently own and have owned several Rolex's but actually have not ever owned a Timex. If transportation is the object the Ford probably surpasses the Ferrari from most every aspect. Again I have never owned a Ferrari but have owned several Lotus and Fords. You,personally,establish the reason you buy an article and you alone determine it's value to YOU.I have several fine oil paintings by a rather well known artist. To me they surpass a Picasso or veritably all the surrealist painters but fall short of the impact a Monet makes on me. My idea of a custom rifle is probably different than yours and I have been building them for over 60 years. Do I find customs better than my own,you'd better believe it in spades. But in the final abstraction my likes and dislikes are my own alone and in that fact only have to please me.

dogcat, are your tools from Harbor Freight or Snap-On?

There is a certain cache to owning a handmade product, as opposed to a mass produced product. The design and engineering may well be no different, but one is, well, made by hand. Ideally the product, a gun in this case, should be made to your specifications and to fit you. Just some thoughts. My Seiko keeps better time than my IWC, but they are NOT the same mechanically. One is battery powered, the other is purely mechanical. I happen to enjoy the engineering and design of the IWC!
Savages are very accurate guns and I have several, however there is no real emotional attachment.
Peter.

I think we have reached a level where form and function are mated at a level unmatched in the past.

We have superb materials, better machines and machining techniques and great craftsmen and artists who are now able to build the "ultimate" rifle.

Today's custom rifles built by the best are in my opinion way ahead of most of the old classics.

quote:

Originally posted by AFRICAN LEADWOOD:
I think we have reached a level where form and function are mated at a level unmatched in the past.

We have superb materials, better machines and machining techniques and great craftsmen and artists who are now able to build the "ultimate" rifle.

Today's custom rifles built by the best are in my opinion way ahead of most of the old classics.

I tend to agree with you but I will add a caveat. The rifles produce in yesteryear by the likes of Rigby, H&H etc were built as working rifles with African and Indian conditions in mind. Meaning their tolerances in the working areas were looser than they could of made. Also their stocks were made for the use of iron sights. Appolpogies if I am teaching people to suck eggs.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I still struggle to understand what makes a "custom" bolt rifle worth more than a Sauer or a new Mauser or even a new HS Precision.

Let me provide the clearest possible answer using your own words:

quote:

by dogcat:
I am an engineer and know a little about design and construction.

The value of high end rifles is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. Not something they teach in engineering school.

I'm quite thankful that there are many who value attention to detail.....every detail. From an engineering perspective, ANY detail that doesn't contribute to the objective of the project is trivial.

Timex vs Rolex
Ford vs Ferrari
RosieO vs Victoria Secret Model

The engineering differences between the above examples are trivial.
The attention to detail differences are stunning.

+1 Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
I still struggle to understand what makes a "custom" bolt rifle worth more than a Sauer or a new Mauser or even a new HS Precision.

Let me provide the clearest possible answer using your own words:

quote:

by dogcat:
I am an engineer and know a little about design and construction.

The value of high end rifles is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. Not something they teach in engineering school.

I'm quite thankful that there are many who value attention to detail.....every detail. From an engineering perspective, ANY detail that doesn't contribute to the objective of the project is trivial.

Timex vs Rolex
Ford vs Ferrari
RosieO vs Victoria Secret Model

The engineering differences between the above examples are trivial.
The attention to detail differences are stunning.

I am totally going to quote this outside of the forum! Make a great back of a gunsmith or machinists business card!

On and in the long run the model would be cheaper then Rosie. Food costs are going sky high! Think of it like ammo! LOL!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gunmaker:

Let me provide the clearest possible answer using your own words:


Timex vs Rolex
Ford vs Ferrari
RosieO vs Victoria Secret Model

[QUOTE]

I think that was an unpardonable insult to Ford and Timex.

quote:

The value of high end rifles is so much more than just the sum of it's parts. Not something they teach in engineering school.

I'm quite thankful that there are many who value attention to detail.....every detail. From an engineering perspective, ANY detail that doesn't contribute to the objective of the project is trivial.

Timex vs Rolex
Ford vs Ferrari
RosieO vs Victoria Secret Model

The engineering differences between the above examples are trivial.
The attention to detail differences are stunning.

Timex make cheap quartz movement watches, whereas Rolex stakes its reputation on mechanical movement watches,
Rolex also has its unique triple seal crown on its professional dive watches.
- devoted watch users & enthusiasts would not consider those as trivial engineering differences.

Also, some don't consider trivial the engineering difference between;

old hat design single cam-push rod [2 valve per cylinder] from Ford or Chev
(vs) quad overhead cam [4-5 valve per cylinder] with dual variable valve timing and variable valve lift,...on the current high tech engines.

The current push rod 6.2L V8 ZR1 Corvette is a respectable rival to the more advanced engine design 6.3L Ferrari,.[on the street],
Even then, the Chev requires forced induction to create 640hp...THe Ferrari engine yields 730hp without forced induction.

When its comes to extreme high performance racing engines [F1,indy500] there aint a pushrod engine in sight.

In such classes of racing, those engineering design differences are far from trivial.

At F1 or Indy500 level, a Ferrari or Ford Cosworth engine, are on par in both engineering design and attention to detail.

I might also add,... 1./ Engineering design and 2./ attention to detail,...are not necessarily the same thing.

on a side note;.. the fact that Rigby is now owned/made by german Blazer is no big deal.
It was a german MauserWerke that produced the original Oberndorf magnum mauser {barreled?]actions exclusively ordered by Rigby, available from about 1904.

Or a H&H Royal double vrs an AR-15

Still merely boils down to YOUR preferences (likes and dislikes). I would daresay the AR15 would be superior to the H&H Royal Double at 300 yards and very sure it would be superior at the speed of anything over 2 shots to 30. This type of thread is what really depresses me about these forums. They are probably 10% information of value and 20% personal opinion and the remainder unadulterated BS. The information I do gleen is of high quality the personal opinion about average (the type you can find between any stock car and sportscar fans) and the BS is really of what I would term low-quality. They also tend to ask questions of the forum that really have no intelligent answer, only personal bias one way or another. It's exactly like asking what is better vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream. Look how long this thread has run and still all you get are opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

I still struggle to understand what makes a "custom" bolt rifle worth more than a Sauer or a new Mauser or even a new HS Precision.

I understand "fit and finish" but nearly every manufacturer provides a very good product these days.

Quality control of the steel and the manufacture of the barrels is better today than 20 years ago.

I tend to agree with you. Factory rifles today are functionally better than factory rifles of the past and perhaps even qualitatively better than even top customs of 30-40 years ago. Barrel manufacturing capabilities alone probably ensure this. Myself, I really only appreciate reliable, accurate, and simply elegant rifles as tools and very little more. I love my Husqvarna 9,3x62 and my new Winchester .416 Rem and would much rather take the money I might spend on "custom" rifles and use it to either pay trophy fees or buy more time off work and hunt more. There are guys who can do it all however and more power to them! Of course, I am the low-class guy who would be content driving to work in a Camry rather than a Mercedes and wearing Cabela's jeans and $10 Chinese wellingtons rather than tailored tweed shooting outfits and Chameau boots.

As an aside, when it comes to watches, I am currently wearing a Seiko 5 Military automatic and it keeps better time than ANY of the Rolexes I have had (Air-King, Explorer I, Sea-Dweller). I would not consider a watch that keeps poor time to be "refined" any more than my Seiko...just perhaps made from more expensive materials and containing more moving parts that contribute little to performance. You want "refined" then know that Rolex is absolutely not your ideal...check out JLC or IWC in stead. More watch for sometimes LESS money!

quote:

They are probably 10% information of value and 20% personal opinion and the remainder unadulterated BS.

Outstanding!


.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
I would not consider a watch that keeps poor time to be "refined" any more than my Seiko...just perhaps made from more expensive materials

A high dollar custom rifle is not necessarily the most accurate hunting rifle,[just like Rolex may not be the best time keeper],
Some people are content with reasonably good hunting accuracy,
but still desire refinment in other areas like; wood/metal fit/finish,stock fit,balance,weight,asthetics,scope mount design,etc.

Watches;..you can save money by buying an IWC instead of a Rolex,
But IWC use a Swiss ETA/Valijoux base calibre - that many other watch makers around the world use,
and are available from about : $160[2824,2836 chronometer]-$400[7750 chronograph]

You will find those well respected Swiss movements in anything from a $500 Hamilton to a $20,000 Hublot.

In the extreme, 'IWC Grande Complication'[starts at $200,000} consists of a modified Valijoux.

[One can even easily get a 'replica' Rolex with genuine ETA automatic 2836-calibre, for around $300.]

The final product price varies partly according to the level of refinement/modification done to the ETA base serial calibre,
and also according to the watch case construction & materials used.

http://www.iwcforum.com/Uhrenjournal.html ..

http://www.watchtalkforums.inf...sion-forum/49600.htm ..

So you can buy a slap together $500 ETA calibre watch and a $500 slap together mauser,
or you can buy a highly modified/refined ETA calibre watch and a highly modified/refined M98 custom,
..... for many thousands $$$ more.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
A high dollar custom rifle is not necessarily the most accurate hunting rifle,[just like Rolex may not be the best time keeper],

I agree with that. But at that point, whatever "refinement" exists is just for show. Granted, there is a threshold of tolerance in this arena, but sooner or later if a Rolex is losing a few minutes a day, it's refinement in other areas is pretty pointless. Sooner or later aesthetics won't feed the bulldog.

quote:

Watches;..you can save money by buying an IWC instead of a Rolex,
But IWC use a Swiss ETA/Valijoux base calibre - that many other watch makers around the world use,
and are available from about : $160[2824,2836 chronometer]-$400[7750 chronograph]

I may be mistaken, but I do believe IWC uses "in house" movements in some models. Even without that, we could argue all day about how many "refinements" and "modifications" are required for an ETA movement to stop being an ETA movement. How many in house movements are made 100% on site? Probably none. On that note, I am almost certain JLC uses in house movements in ALL models. If I am going to spend $8000+ on a watch (JLC vs. Rolex for instance), I am not going to be content with something mass produced AND inaccurate. Are there other purposes (eg. durability) served by some models? Yes, for sure. If I am hiking, I want the Rolex and not the JLC but I would not characterize the former as at all "refined".

Actually Rolex is the Timex of Swiss watches. To use the word complication with any of their movements is an insult. The only time you have to touch a Patek Moon phase is once every four years to account for leap year, everything else (day/date/month/moon phase) is taken care of by the complication.

Similarly, the old school rifle mfg are like Rolex. Mssrs Echols/Holehan etc./et al. build a much better more refined product.

TO be honest I have not claimed Rolex to be refined,nor refered to it as a'complication', like I would consider some ultra-premium Swiss watches.[ie; Patek Philippe]

NO doubt, one can build a rifle or watch, without having to go to the trouble[& expense] to have the best Fit and finish throughout, be they required for accuracy and reliablity, or not.

Analogy:...most people would not know the difference between a generally acceptable G/SI grade diamond (vs) a D/IF,
if you cut the G/SI to accurate ideal proportions,.. it amazing how well it comes up, some people however just like having a more rare grade of stone.
A rare high grade rock deserves nothing but the best, which means making sure it is cut and polished to the highest standard.
Most women would not know what one meant if you said it was: D/IF,ideal proportions,excellent cut,excellent symmetry,excellent polish, low or no fluorescence.

However the precious stone industry/world market price knows the difference,even if the eye of the general consumer does not.

1 carat G/SI [ideal]is about $6k,...1 carat D/IF [ideal] is about $18k.

Like stones, a fairly good custom rifle can cost $6k,..a really brilliant and refined rifle $18k no problem.

Like diamonds and watches, some people may or may not appreciate that someone gets the best grade of rifle components and puts them together to the highest possible standard.
Some may or may not appreciate the work done, some while appreciating it may still not be prepared to pay for it, or see much value in actually owning it,...its all about personal values.

Really top notch custom rifles dont appear cheap, but when on considers the amount of time/hrs it takes to do really meticulous top grade work,
one can understand why they can command the prices they do.

Re: Inhouse production.

Although Rolex manufacturers it movements in-house, they were originally outsourced, as were patented designs he incorporated in his watches.

IWC is known to have ETA supply their calibres already modified to IWC specifications.

Regarding rifles, Echols gives credit where it is due, and openly tells where he gets his custom components machined.
His proprietary scope rings still need a decent amount of work done to them to accept a scope & fit up to an action.
M70 & M98 actions are also outsourced as are barrels.
THis does not change the fact that Echols rifles are at the pinnacle of top level custom rifles.

Re:Mass production, its all relative.

Proficient & reliable top level custom rifle shops craftsmen[some being assisted], can produce maybe a dozen rifles a year,some more.

Supreme top level watch houses like Patek, produce some 20,000 units a year,of essentially 'Echols' grade watches,{if you know what I mean}
in contrast, Rolex produce in the vacinity of 750,000 units a year.

I've always found the following saying appropriate for discussions like this: For those that understand, no explanation is necessary; for those that don't, no amount of explanation will ever suffice.

Wow, I just came back to the thread I started! We seem to have come a long way. First, I own an IWC and love it. I also own several Seiko (battery) watches and they keep very good time. I will let you know in 30 years whether they last as long as the IWC which I bought in 1970. The IWC does need maintenance ie. periodic cleaning etc. The Seiko's do not. The IWC is a mechanical marvel. Now, back to rifles. With watches, you pay a lot for things other than the movement ie. gold caes etc. Same with rifles ie. you pay for addons that do nothing to enhance the mechancs of the gun (action etc.) but can enhance the beauty (in the eye of the beholder). Some want to pay for this, others do not. Custom rifles seem to be "traditional". Same with mechanical watches. I say this because I was recently taken with the new Merkel Rx Helix. I would love to own one, even though I own a Blaser.
Peter.

quote:

With watches, you pay a lot for things other than the movement ie. gold caes etc. Same with rifles ie. you pay for addons that do nothing to enhance the mechancs of the gun (action etc.)

To some degree true.

A bare bones version Patek - 'Aquanaut' [i.e; steel case & rubber strap], is $20k+
Gold case & rubber, will bump that to $38k.

One could also double the price of a top echelon custom rifle, if one was to chose the right quality & quantity of engraving.

However, in the upper echelon Pateks, like the $500k minute repeater tourbillon....and $1.4m Moon repeater tourbillon.
...the case material does not form a major part of the price.