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Lots of ways to go about it. If you know who you want to build it, contact the gunsmith and ask him for his recommendation. Then you can discuss option as pricing with him. This is the route I went when deciding on finally having a 404 J built. Duane is building mine. I did not know which Mauser action would be best. In the end we went with a 1909 Argentine. Then we talked styling and features. I can't post pictures as it is not done yet. Roger Kehr has done the engraving on all my projects. He posted pics here a while back under the title "some light English scroll". Unless you have a very specific action you want to use, I'd go with your smith's recommendation. I have done projects both ways (specific action and smith's recommendation). All have turned out well. You are going to trust your smith to build it, why not trust his recommendations on what action to use. | |||
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I don't think the Mouserfeld will be around long. | |||
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I have a hard time seeing it die out...a ton of guys are running them in PRS competition and doing well. Plus, the guy building them is an actual no shit genius...the Toridal lugs are brilliant in and of themselves. It runs a 700 trigger...which means the sky is the limit on options and modularity...plus I think it fits in a 700 footprint and might be able to use 700 bottom metal? Longrifles Inc has some impressive feeding videos on it being set up and running some difficult to feed rounds. It was made to run hard...but it is running in sniper/competition circles as it is capable of some incredible precision. I'm just wondering if the long one will handle a 375...which I think it would...but it will be tight. We'll see...I'm looking at taking the plunge on it. | |||
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Your rifle sounds almost identical to what I was thinking... I even bought a pristine 1909 Argentine Mauser off Gunbroker some years back to use for the build. Duane's work is spectacular. His photos were the inspiration for a lot of my goals on the project. I'm just fishing for ideas/pitfalls. I'm torn because my area of expertise is precision rifles on the military/law enforcement side (work) and I know there are a ton of things that can be sub optimal on precision rifle builds...action being a big one. I see a lot of strong views on various Mauser actions...GMA, Saterlee, European makers, vintage actions...not really sure what to make of it all. The lug setback/hardening on the vintage actions seems like a deal breaker as I shoot a lot and need it to run full speed for high round counts. It won't be a safe queen. Anyway, thanks much for the comment. Good info, much appreciated. | |||
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Planning the project is half the fun. after you get the project started the waiting can be hard but the anticipation is nice. I understand not wanting safe queens. I have been hunting with custom for over 15 years. Taking one to Alaska in may to hunt bear. I have plans to take my 404 to Africa when done. It might be a while before I get there but I plan to put it to use hunting the animals it was designed for. Good luck with your build and thanks for your service. | |||
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When ordering a new Mauser for a 404 build, say from GMA, Mayfair, or similar- what are the group's views on configuration? Double square bridge vs pre-machined for scope mounting...single bridge? Do smiths generally have a preference? Is it better to get extended tangs from the factory or have the smith weld the on himself? I know it's a question for whomever is building the rifle and each gunsmith likely has their own view...just curious. | |||
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I too am interested in seeing what people prefer and why. Going with an Argentine action the question of bridge configuration did not come up. We also did not extend the tang or bottom metal. Although doing so greatly increases strength through the wrist. | |||
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Saw the comment about PRS action using a 700 trigger, Is that true? if so, I have no idea the thinking behind that, his trigger design itself was far cry from the 700 and so well thought out that I suggested he make aftermarket versions. | |||
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I wasn't clear on that. I mean to say that the trigger group fits standard 700 type actions I.E. any trigger that firs a 700, should fit the Mausingfield action. He does have one of his own design in the works and as he's a literal genius, it's reportedly very good. | |||
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Hmmmm don't get it...he had an action here in my shop abouot a year ago, the trigger design as far I know was finalized. Damn good..that was why I suggested the design be offered after market. Are you telling me he's working on version 2? | |||
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Sorry, I mean to say that yes, I believe Ted has a trigger in the works, along with a few other things. In the interim, the action is compatible with all standard 700 type triggers. If it fits a 700, it should also fit a Mausingfield. That's my understanding, without having one in front of me. | |||
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Watching all of the videos the action looks like it works well. I don't know if I like the idea of a trigger safety though. And for a really fine custom rifle it looks ugly. It doesn't have the classic looking lines of a dolled up Mauser or Winchester. What would be really nice would be if you could make identical copies of the mauser action that uses the interchangeable bolt head. The bolt knob also would look out of place on a really fine custom rifle. The trigger guard would also look out of place on a really fine custom rifle. | |||
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While I agree that it would look out of place on a traditional custom rifle, I have to wonder if we sometimes hold ourselves back...as if time stopped in the early 1900s. If the likes of Bell, Ruark, Selous, and similar were going to Africa today...what would they take? Did they shape the trigger guard out of nostalgia or was it just how it was...and would they likewise think "hey, that's a great idea for a bolt handle"...or would they prefer the old way. I am a bit of a traditionalist in personally owned firearms...but I can see the value in some of the modern features. | |||
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I guess I might as well take my RAYGUN. | |||
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Getting back to the original topic- I sent a few RFIs out to various action manufacturers inquiring as to what type of steel was used, if they were sold hardened or soft, and similar. They were very gracious and happy to discuss. The gist was that Mayfair (and GMA?) are both modern 8620 steel, I believe heat treated from the factory...while pretty much everyone else was using basic C35 carbon steel that was sold soft and the smith was expected to heat treat after he was finished. Some small parts were sold hardened like firing pins and similar...but the receiver was sold soft. Is one truly "better"? It seems that the more modern steel, as used by Mayfair, would be a superior option? Cost was generally the same among makers... Also, do most gunsmiths prefer that the action be manufactured with extended tangs from the factory or is it preferable to weld them during the build in order to match the profile of that individual stock? | |||
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One of the isssues with that Mayfair action, at least for those who desire the classic look in their rifle, is the "scope cutout" on the standard bolt. It looks too much like somebody wanted to save a few bucks and opted for a forged handle on a 98 mauser rebuild job. | |||
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8620, modern? I believe it is a soft steel that gets case hardening on the outside and not normally used as a normal heat treat. | |||
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I'll only speak from the gunmakers point of view. Except for the Satterlee action, most will take a BUNCH of work to make feed and function. Some of the pre hardened actions are really hard and are a bitch to work with. The soft actions, of course can be easily machined and nicely finished. Then when case hardened, all surfaces nice and hard. Note that this was the original concept...hard case, softer core. In the event of an outrageous pressure will "give, stretch" a bit. The through hardened action MAY fail or rupture. I think most would agree that we'd be talking of astronomical pressure required to damage either. | |||
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For the 06 size and under, I really like the Brno 21 and 22 or the G-33/40 (basically the same)... For the short mags and even a .375 H&H or 300 H&H I like a the 1935 Chilean or its equel 98 Mauser such as a some of the 1908s. Others are good, just answering your question best I can. If I intended to use a large bore such as a 404 and upwards, a true magnum Mauser would be my choice, or one of the better knockoffs such as the Satterlee or whatever. Ive only used the true magnum Mausers for these calibers, but they are bloody expensive these days so a Satterlee doesn't seem so expensive to me and I certainly respect Wiebes recommendation as proof in the pudding..Sounds like the best bet of all for a big bore. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I defer to the metalurgists among us... It just seemed interesting that there were basically 2 camps when it came to Mauser actions made today...one group made from C35 steel and one group (Mayfield and GMA) made from 8620... I'm not saying one is "better"...but it would be interesting to get a view from an expert as to what the advantage might be. It appeared that the C35 actions were more in line with traditional, older manufacturing methods and objectives and used this particular steel as it was relatively close to the historical standard...while GMA and similar used a more modern steel formulation. Again, not saying one is "better"...just interesting. | |||
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Mauser actions made from both of these steels get a carburised (case hardened) skin of up to 60Rc. The c35 through hardens to a degree because of it's medium carbon content(.3 to .35%) giving a core hardness of 30-40Rc. The 8620 (.2% carbon) ends up roughly the same core hardness due to other alloying elements. | |||
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Is one superior for the intended purpose? Perhaps Duane or a similarly experienced builder could opine, but I believe the GMAs and Mayfair actions arrive already heat treated...so they get worked over, trued as needed, machined for optics, etc...as they are with no further heat treat, while the others get heat treat after the work by the smith. Would that leave the actions made with 8620 in a state where the case had been machined away if they had been required to true a surface or similar? | |||
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Is one superior? I don't know but the action makers are split into two camps so I would be thinking there's not a lot in it. Removing case hardening is fine but not from the critical areas i.e. locking recesses etc. Usually they require some adjustment to the rails or feed ramp which doesn't hurt them. | |||
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These new actions are all made on pretty fancy CNC equipment, and to "blue print" a 404 action would be an exercise in futility. The one thing about the early GMA's was that there was no room in the ring at the extractor slot to single load...i.e. drop one in the spout and the bolt sill not close, but it will sure as heck jam the cartridge into the chamber tighter than hell. In my opinion a very a pretty outrageous situation. Now, one can get in there and remove the needed material (not a piece of cake to do so) They now do have added clearance. Darn good action...but a nuance to consider if you find an early one. | |||
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Sarco probably has Dumoulin actions left. They Rockwell about 42 and have an adjustable trigger and straddle type bottom metal. They need a little polishing but that was going to happen with a military action anyway. Talley and Sunny Hill make bases and rings for them. I think they cost about $350 complete. You can't buy the bottom metal for that. And no, dufus, they are not made in China. Try Belgium. Quick, Cheap, or Good: Pick Two | |||
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Vol717, I have read a few reviews of these actions where they were made in China, do you have anything that disputes that? Sarco's web site says ASSEMBLED in Belgium, not made in Belgium. Im have been interested in using one for a build but have steered clear because of all of the manufactured in China/assembled in Belgium internet chatter. | |||
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A question I have as well. I have two of those actions tucked away; they seem as well or better made than the contemporary Zastava product. On mine the bottom metal is tight and the three position safety works well. Apparently some have received some crappy ones, luck of the draw I guess. My only criticism is the butt ugly bolt handle. "For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind..." Hosea 8:7 | |||
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