OK I started the thread "Custom rifles hold their value?" and had some interesting comments. The main one, I noticed was that a lot of the value of a custom rifle is associated with the name of the builder. No surprise there I guess! We were even provided a list of "good names" that would hold their value. Then someone mentioned a name "Casartelli", one that I am not familiar with. So this is an example of a "sleeper" in my terminology ie. a not well know maker who nevertheless makes high quality guns, but whose work is not highly valued in the used custom gun marketplace. Presumably these would be candidates if one wished to purchase a high quality custom rifle at a reasonable price. What might be some other names?
I saw this for example:
http://hallowellco.com/norin%2...m%20mauser%207mm.htm
This seems to be a nearly new gun selling for less than the "build price" if I read the verbiage correctly.
Peter.

That's a beautiful rifle. Judging from the pictures and the provenance, it would seem to be a very good value for the asking price. I'm guessing there are more than a few "sleeper smiths" building some very nice "sleepers".

Craigster, I guess that was what I was trying to say. We focus on the "big names" perhaps because of the "investment value", yet, there may be some very good gunsmiths out there, producing high quality work (as has been pointed out by others) that can be purchased used, and give one an excellent value and a beautiful gun. I personally don't need a lot of engraving (unless it's free!). My problem is that I don't know who those guys are, and so I hesitate to play in that sandbox.
Peter.

That sure makes me more anxious to get my rifle back from Ken Hurst. I really like his engraving.
Butch

quote:

So this is an example of a "sleeper" in my terminology ie. a not well know maker who nevertheless makes high quality guns, but whose work is not highly valued in the used custom gun marketplace. Presumably these would be candidates if one wished to purchase a high quality custom rifle at a reasonable price. What might be some other names?
I saw this for example:

I've seen the name a few times before and he is a member of the guild (still is or not I dont know). That is one SWEET rifle and very tastefully done. I dont think you can call that gun a sleeper or even the smith because who ever that rifle was made for may have taken a loss on this gun to get something he liked better or fell on hard times. May not be in the top 10 in the guild name wise but it fits under the heading as very tastefully done and well I like his style.
In most, but not all will the value exceed what you pay in a custom rifle, say like a second hand Remington factory gun, someone has to make a dime on it at retail time. "Sleeper" not so sure, I'd mark this one up as a good buy on a second hand custom rifle built buy a knowledgable builder!

srtrax, "sleeper" may not the the correct word. What I meant was "someone whose work has not been fully appreciated yet because he is not a big name", so "sleeper" seemed to fit the bill well. I agree that the rifle is beautiful, however in retrospect it IS very specialized ie. a full blown custom rifle, in that it is set up for open sights only. So, for someone looking for that exact specification this would be a good acquisition, but for someone else just looking for a "good deal", this would have limited appeal, even though as you say, it is very well done.
Peter.

$4-5K gun at best. Money poorly spent....or I should say I wouldn't have thrown away $9K on building it.

Very limited market:
1. 7 x 57 is a "nostalgic" caliber.
2. No scope mounts.
3. 7 x 57 98s are a dime a dozen. Guild Chevy's if you will. Not unique at all.
4. Pretty gun, but nothing special.

If a person doesn't care about #1 and #2 ie the target customer, he has the $ to build one for himself.

If I just read the description of the gun, I wouldn't take the time to click the button to look at it. Pretty gun though, not my cup of tea.

This is a $400 gun show find that David Christman reshaped the stock, took out the whiteline spacers, and rust blued. The original smith knew what he was doing. It feeds the 284 cartridges like no bodies business and shoots 1/2moa with handloads. Even with David's work, I am in it for not much money. Kinda helps when I think about the money I have in others.It is a 1909 Argentine.


Christman does good work.
Butch

I was going to add that I thought 7 grand was a little on the high side, but like I said "someone has to make a dime on it being second hand". No scope, No middle sight, 7x57, not a 24" barrel, I wouldnt kick it out of my safe because of that. But then I do like it...

Agreed! At the right price it would be a good buy. I happen to like the 7x57.
Peter.

I don't have pics of it, but sold to a member here a 270 Apex (7mm rem mag necked to 270, I don't know why) that I bought for 500 bucks just because the stock was so incredible on it. gorgeous walnut, checkering was likely 22 or 24lpi (can't remember now but I did check it at one point). I wish I remembered who I sold it to, I thought about trying to buy it back. it was just so gorgeous.

Thank you for posting the Dave Norin rifle, that is one of the loveliest stocks I've ever seen. the drop is wonderful, I love how the thumb cut was shaped, man I like that rifle. saving pics for later reference.

Got to agree with some of the comments here that the rifle is of "limited" interest. The stock is nothing special in fact plays out and I would not have used it on one of my builds. Dave does good work for sure but this rifle will only appeal to a infinitesimal percentage of the custom market. Sorry but I would not buy it except to resell.

Scrollwork leaves a something to be desired...

quote:

The stock is nothing special in fact plays out

Sorry Boss, I don't understand what you mean here. Can you please explain?
Thanks, Peter.

I rather like the rifle. It has good, clean lines, excellent craftsmanship, and is tastefully embellished. I like that it isn't so overdone that it would never leave the gunsafe. As for the sights, well I rather like iron sights. They make for a very trim, good handling rifle. It isn't everyone's cup of tea, it isn't necessarily the rifle I'd have built but it is, none-the-less, a very fine rifle.

Jerry Liles

I spoke too quickly...I didn't mean to disparage the engraver.

I don’t have the time, energy or resources to pursue post- war custom rifles. From time to time I see late 40’s thru 50’s custom rifles, many made by well known gunmakers marked and unmarked at what I feel are giveaway prices. For someone who can recognize quality work there are some real bargains out there in the custom rifle field. Reminds me back when I was buying Niedner-Shelhamer's for $250 and thinking that was a lot of money.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
..For someone who can recognize quality work there are some real bargains out there in the custom rifle field...

my thoughts exactly.
The ability to recognise great value fine work, is more important than the popularity of the builders name stamp.
I prefer & specify that a maker create my rifles without his name[vanity markings] on them...Just the necessary cal. & serial#.
If his work is good it will speak for itself.

quote:

Originally posted by SDH:
[QUOTE]I would not create a custom gun without my hallmark, and would not buy one without the makers identity. It just seems foolish, and thoughtless to me to not sign a piece of quality craftsmanship, for now and for the future.
I also request that the engraver sign the work in an easily seen location so that all know who crafted the embellishment.

The funny thing is that virtually no buyers know who actually did the engraving of many of the fine London and Birmingham made shotguns and rifles of the "golden age".
In fact, in Greener's book - The Gun and Its Development - it is noted that the engraving was the least expensive trade to hire out. Actioners and stockers made more than the engravers. Of course engraving was a fairly common trade in those days considering every illustration in any publication was printed from an engraving at that time.

A few years back the DFW Bass Pro gunroom got in a collection of Left Hand guns. In the group was a nice custom Dakota actioned rifle in 416 Hoffman. They were selling it as a factory Dakota. It had all the bells and whistles, was nicely put together and included a S&B scope in EAW mounts, the price was $2,500.

I snatched it up and tried to figure out who built it. When I took the recoil pad off the initials "RW" were stamped on the butt. I asked around on this site and was directed to Robert Winter out of South Dakota. I wrote to Mr. Winter and he confirmed that he had built the gun for a Dr. out of Missouri and forwarded me all the build information.

I spoke to Mr. Winter and we had an enjoyable conversation. The Doctor had shown up on his door step one day with an armful of actions, wood and barrels and was looking for someone to build his rifles. Over the next several years Mr. Winter had built several guns for the Doctor.

I later learned that Mr. Winter had many rifles pictured in the Gun Digest through the years and was a custom maker of some fame.

Everytime I look at or use that rifle I smile and think I did pretty good.

Its not often us lefties find a score like that.

Do you still have the Hoffman?

quote:

Originally posted by Scrollcutter:
Scrollwork leaves a something to be desired...

You're exactly right, no need to apologize, although I understand your position. That scrollwork looks like an engraving student's practice on a piece of scrap metal. I hope Hurst had one of his students do that, because otherwise he's really losing it. He should NEVER have allowed his name to be on it.

AFA as the rest of the gun goes, $7950 for THAT, someone is kidding me right? There are better pieces for sale all day long for substantially less.

And here, of course, we have the advantages and disadvantages of a custom built rifle ie. some like it and some don't! At the right price, I would certainly buy it. Are there "better" (whatever that means) ones out there, probably, but that rifle and that caliber really appeals to me. Now I have to explain to Hallowell that it is only worth $4K.
Peter.

Let me be clear, I didn't say I didn't like it, I said it was grossly overpriced. The engraving, because of the quality, hurts, not helps, it IMO, but then again, I like and collect good engraving. At $2000 to $2500 it would be a decent buy. The wood quality is nothing extra and it is just a run of the mill, non-scoped old style custom rifle. But hey, it's your money and your taste, if it suits you, that's wonderful.

OTOH, if you go to the upcoming Tulsa Gun Show, you will likely see a good many used custom rifles that I would consider to be a better deal for $4000 or less.

PS: Just to be clear to those who don't know, the easiest way to quickly evaluate engraving quality is the scroll work, if any. In good quality work the curves will flow, there won't be any "flat" spots, it will be very symmetrical and well laid out. Just look at the above floorplate and it should become obvious what I'm talking about.

Gato, thanks for the education! I had not noticed that.
Peter.

SDH,
Thank you, Steven, for the professional's viewpoint.

Custom rifles are just that, custom and a matter of personal tastes. I have handled that rifle and really, really like it. Understated and very tasteful in my opinion. I would be happy to own it.
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
That sure makes me more anxious to get my rifle back from Ken Hurst. I really like his engraving.
Butch

He did a nice job on my 404J.

While the flaws in the engraving are certainly noticable, They are exaggerated somewhat by the magnification. Particularly the closeup of the triggerguard bow. I think the rest of the engraving actually looks pretty darn nice at normal viewing distance. I agree that I wouldn't pay top dollar for it though. (couldn't actually see the price that everyone was refering to...)

On another note, I have a Redfield banded front sight just like this rifle has, but no blade insert. Anybody know where I could get one?

As they used to say in Rome, de gustibus non est disputandum. I think is an especially goodlooking rifle, even the engraving. Overpriced of course, but nothing that dealer offers is ever inexpensive.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
On another note, I have a Redfield banded front sight just like this rifle has, but no blade insert. Anybody know where I could get one?

PM me, I have a few. Also here's the info on a splendid sight source.

The Sight Man
Ken Bean
383 Yorkana Road
York, PA 17406
(717) 755-9070

Regards, Joe

470

Dr. Bob Sweet was the owner of all those left hand rifles. He lived in Springfield. Westly Richards ended up with his wood. A full size pickup load. He died at a very early age form a rare disease if I remember correctly.

Darrell Ragar



dDr/

From what I have seen over the years, many very nice to superb custom weapons will never be seen by us.
The reason is that often the better custom gunmakers are tasked to make presentation grade rifles or pistols that most folks keep as wall-hanger pieces of art.
Remember that lots of folks enjoy taking nice weapons into the field to use, but when the value of a weapon equals or betters more than half your yearly income, you are probably more likely to treat that item as a cherrished item or true piece of art rather than a tool to use when hunting or target shooting at the range.

I remember having an original Colt Bisley in 44-40 caliber and it was in 99%+ original condition other than that it was 100% engraved by Cole Agee. It also had a one piece all ivory grip that showed it's plus 100 year age with plenty of yellow character. It's engraving was all cattle brands. That was back in 1967. I didn't know what I had until one time while at the range plinking someone came by and explained that I was shooting a pistol valued at more than my annual salary and I could be degrading it, not only from a value standpoint but also from a functional and work of art standpoint!

A lot of things go into the 2nd hand price of a custom rifle.

1. Caliber.
2. Wood
3. Receiver
4. How nice is it?
5. Scope mounts are custom, Talley, claw, swing, what?
6. Scope is?
7. Condition
8. Previous owner

And probably a couple more.

A rifle Capstick, O'Connor, Keith, Hemmingway, Ruark, Roosevelt is worth more than a gun owned by someone still living. With the last 3 being worth more than the first 3. Folks like Warren Page, Fritz, and etc are worth a bit less.

A original Holland and Holland bolt rifle, engraved with wonderful animals in very perfect form, with a high dollar scope, in a great claw mount, and stupendous wood in 8mm Remington Magnum will not be worth what one in 275, 300, or 375 is.

Tough crowd.

I love that rifle, despite its few and slight imperfections.

I would not, however, pay more than $3,500 or so for it, and I would be surprised if it ever sells for much more than that.

I really like that rifle, nice clean look. Not too over the top, just enough bling to make it pretty. I really like that bottom metal and grip cap with the engraving. I think I could do without the engraving on the actual action. But the jeweled bolt looks really nice on that rifle.