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Hey, if you want a rifle that looks a lot like someone else's, why, GO FOR IT! In my mind it's like an original oil painting versus a print. Sure, the print looks just as good in certain lights but it's still one of maybe 100 or 1000 clones. The oil OTOH is a unique item, you won't find another oil exactly like it unless the artist is extremely good. 2 perspectives here, that of the client and that of the artist or workman. No, the client can't tell the difference in the workmanship because there IS no difference. The machine-made product is just as well-made as the hand-made one and I'll be the first to say so. But, unfortunately, the pantograph limits the shaping to some degree and more-or-less mandates a lookalike appearance for many of the craftsman's products. If the craftsman is a workman producing a series of similar products, some almost identical, that's one thing. If OTOH the craftsman is an artist producing a series of unique creations, that's another thing entirely. I guess it comes down to whether the craftsman and the client want something unique or something that looks like many others. Here's a good example: imagine that you've just walked into a high-dollar gun show and you see 2 tables across the aisle from one another. One table is full of similar-looking rifles while the other is full of different-looking rifles. All the rifles on both tables are made to the highest and most exacting standards with impeccable workmanship. Now you're standing there, torn, having to decide which table to inspect first. Since everyone is different, I'm sure that there are some folks who would go to the clone table first. Not me, the clones are just not interesting enough in comparison. For a similar reason it seems that many artists are reluctant to duplicate their products. Sure, some will do it if they need the money but it seems that in other cases their artistic feelings will balk at the cloning. Just not interesting enough for a true artist. I guess like most things it depends upon individual taste and discrimination. And sometimes artistry as opposed to workmanship. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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A much simpler way of putting it is to say that I personally find that using a pantograph for more than a one-off one-time duplication is too limiting to my own need for creativity and style evolution. IOW I personally have never used the same pantograph pattern more than once, without changing some fairly significant feature. Of course OTOH I'm not a production shop either.... Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Keep in mind Owen Bartlett does the stocks for George Hoenig. You've probably never heard of him unless you know George, but Owen is flat amazing. | |||
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I had a recent experience where I wondered if the gunsmith did the work or if his plebeian sidekick did. I don't mind having the 'other' guy do the work, but it has to be to the level of quality as the guy who cashes my check. | |||
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It matters a great deal to me. My gunsmith and I have been friends for over 40 yrs; we are the same age; our tastes run very close to the same; and neither of us is enamored with belted magnums. He does 90% of the work and I do some little things. He is semi-retired now so I have very little "wait time" when a project comes up. GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!! IF YOU'RE GONNA GET OLD,YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!! GETTIN' OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES!! | |||
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Originally posted by J.D.Steele: Hey, if you want a rifle that looks a lot like someone else's, why, GO FOR IT! I wouldnt build a more unique rifle just to be different if I didnt really like it, nor would I build a rifle the same as someone elses if i didnt really like it. In my mind it's like an original oil painting versus a print. Sure, the print looks just as good in certain lights but it's still one of maybe 100 or 1000 clones. The oil OTOH is a unique item, you won't find another oil exactly like it unless the artist is extremely good. 2 perspectives here, that of the client and that of the artist or workman. No, the client can't tell the difference in the workmanship because there IS no difference. The machine-made product is just as well-made as the hand-made one and I'll be the first to say so. But, unfortunately, the pantograph limits the shaping to some degree and more-or-less mandates a lookalike appearance for many of the craftsman's products. If the craftsman is a workman producing a series of similar products, some almost identical, that's one thing. If OTOH the craftsman is an artist producing a series of unique creations, that's another thing entirely. I guess it comes down to whether the craftsman and the client want something unique or something that looks like many others. What ever pleases the customer. their is no right or wrong. I really would not care if its just like another, or partially or completely different. as long as im content with it. Here's a good example: imagine that you've just walked into a high-dollar gun show and you see 2 tables across the aisle from one another. One table is full of similar-looking rifles while the other is full of different-looking rifles. All the rifles on both tables are made to the highest and most exacting standards with impeccable workmanship. Now you're standing there, torn, having to decide which table to inspect first. Since everyone is different, I'm sure that there are some folks who would go to the clone table first. Not me, the clones are just not interesting enough in comparison. Theres no hurry, I would take time to look at both tables. ..now I may discover that other table may contain something "different looking" like an Empire 98s. Its different alright, but No thanks, I dont like its slabsided appearance. Give me an more common round contour M98 any day. I prefer a new manufacture mauser action to be like this New Mexican .. no military charge slot/hump and no left wall cutout. It has very low SqrBridgs I like,...yet I dont really care for M70 type safeties. For a similar reason it seems that many artists are reluctant to duplicate their products. Sure, some will do it if they need the money but it seems that in other cases their artistic feelings will balk at the cloning. Just not interesting enough for a true artist. I guess like most things it depends upon individual taste and discrimination. And sometimes artistry as opposed to workmanship. Intelligent gun buiding involves quality of design & execution with end use and purpose in mind, not just individual unchecked creativity/artistry. Theres alot of individual artistic crap out their that doesnt balance & function all that well as an hunting tool. Somehow some smiths & customers can get carried away/loose perpective. | |||
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Interesting how no one commented on this stock modification technique. What do ARs top ranked rifle smiths think of the technique? Thats a $150,000+ customers Purdey. Do you view the technique as acceptable for such an Bespoke weapon? or would you prefer a restock for the new right handed owner? Cast, Bend, Pitch, and Stock Repair Clamping Jig and Setting Bench built by David Trevallion. Purdey O/U in the Trevallion Jig. It was originally built with a 'left-handed' stock. It moved the stock from 1/2" Cast ON (left-handed) to about 7/16" cast OFF (right-handed); took 3 'treatments'...over 4 days. Had to re-fit the pistol grip trigger guard to the stock without removing any wood.  David Trevallion ACGG honorary member. [quote] On January 26, 2008 at the business meeting of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild (ACGG) in Reno, David Trevallion, received an Honorary Membership in The ACGG. The ACGG grants a membership of this type to persons who deserve special recognition, the plaque Mr Trevallion received read: “The American Custom Gunmakers Guild proudly recognizes David Trevallion for his outstanding contribution to custom gunmaking”. Recently I asked David about his contribution and he said “And his 55 years standing at the work bench, what we used to say at Purdey, wearing a hole in the floorboards”. And a productive fifty five years at the work bench it has been. I quote here Michael McIntosh from the sleeve of Shotgun Technicana: “David Trevallion was born in London in 1938, three hundred yards from James Purdey and Sons. He fired a gun for the first time at the age of nine, on a farm in Gloucestershire. At fifteen, he was apprenticed at the Purdey factory, where he worked under veteran stockmaker William O’Brien. Six years later, having completed his apprenticeship, David became a full-fledged stockmaker at Purdey’s. In June 1963 he submitted his master piece to the Court of Assistants of the worshipful Company of Gunmakers and was admitted to the Freedom of the Company. David remained at Purdey’s until 1964, when he emigrated to the United States. He soon founded Trevallion Gunstocks in Eau Gallie, Florida, subsequently moving the business to Chicago, Indianapolis, and Cape Neddick, Maine, where it has been located since 1986”. To my knowledge Mr. Trevallion is the only person to bear the distinction of being “Admitted to the Freedom of the Company” and a member of the ACGG. David worked at Purdey with Ken Hunt, and knew Harry Kell. I asked Gary Goudy, a stockmaker and former president of ACGG what he felt about David’s membership, he said and and I quote; “Speaking on behalf of my fellow Regular Members of the ACGG, I can say the American Custom Gunmaker’s Guild membership is honored by his participation in our organization.” Gary paused, and then added: “We are delighted to have him in the Ranks, A talent of Davids’ stature doesn’t need the Guild, but we sure need him”. Thank you Mr. Trevallion. [endquote] | |||
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I like his timer!  | |||
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dewey i have to admit that from reading most of your comments u are ingorant person who know everything | |||
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Classic  It's ignorant. BTW, Dewey can be a little abbrasive at times but he's a pretty smart fella. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Hey, it's my old pal, "Lilcovac" (spelling?), how are ya and I see your English has not improved much, eh? Still making those trenchant observations about Canadians, while receiving the privilege of living in our country, too, my my, you sure don't get it, now, do you? On another issue, do you still have that Sauer drilling, I seem to recall you bought it from Ellwood Epps and have been trying to sell it for some time? Nice and very useful guns in much of Ontario, Quebec, the Maritimes and BC, but, they are not very saleable on today's market, I have a custom Merkel in 12-12x9.3x74R and have not had much interest in it although I would sell it as I have two combo guns and never use it. Funny, when you first met me, you constantly pestered me with questions about guns to help you in buying them here in Canada and now I am ...ingorant.... Well, you are a funny little fellow and your posts amuse me. | |||
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Quite an interesting OP and thread in general to me; got me thinking of what I apprecitate and require in a "custom rifle" at this time in my life. It may change as I age and either become richer or poorer. At this time, I don't care who builds my custom. I don't care if it's the gunsmith whos name is stamped on the barrel or his employee. I'm practical. I appreciate asthetics as well, but not over the practicality of the rifle's ability to do what I consider to be its foremost job; to be incredibly accurate and flawless in function. It must be durable to withstand use and sometimes abuse and still look good. My gunsmith builds rifles on blue printed Remington 700 actions, pillar bedded in the stock of your choice with fine cut rifled barrels. I've not had one that shoots worse than 1/2 MOA. The beautiful wood stock work and metal work I've seen posted here often is truly amazing and I get it. But the rifles are too pretty to be put into actual use in my opinion. This is unless the owner has so much cash he doesn't care if they are dropped, beat up a little during a rifle match in the elements, used for a walking stick on a hunt in rugged terrain, scratched on rocks, barbed wire fences, and tree trunks, or just dinged-up on their trips into and out of the truck cab on a hunt. I think they are more works of art to look at, handle, and leave in a display case. My feelings are the same as to shotguns. I've handled and mounted $100,000.00 Perazzi's and other makers offerings at Litz's place in Belgium. Fine wood and craftsmanship. Their balance was quite similar to my $800 Browning Gold that has won a lot of National Titles and I don't feel bad when I accidentally drop it in the dirt or bang it on the side of the shooting cage  | |||
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I just left the post office and paid yet another postage fee for a custom rifle still in progress. I'm counting well over $300 just for shipping to the various gunsmiths who have had a part in the rifle. I probably forget some shipping, perhaps to myself a time or two, since it's been in progress a long time. This is not especially unusual. I used to have one gunsmith who did all the work, but that changed when he retired. Frankly, that's part of the reason that I'm determined to cut the number of projects, and finish those most important to me, and call it done. I suppose to respond to the initial theme, I pretty much know what I want the outcome to be like when I start a project. Some of the work is done by those who specialize, so I have to find another to do various parts of the work. Also, another significant factor is turnaround time. It has seemed for the last several years that I can't just get some projects to move along toward completion, so I send it to specialists for the various segments, because at least they turn out their part of the work quickly, and I can feel like I'm making progress. But the penalty for that is postage. Just yesterday, I was thinking about it again - how I love a custom Mauser, and how I accumulated several complete assemblies - action, trigger, safety, bottom metal, barrel, stock, etc. That's the way I get some enjoyment out of it, and also the bulk of the investment is done. I like each and every part, but also all that is left to do is assembly - hopefully with finess. But, they have remained in that state, as unassembled parts, for many years, waiting on gunsmiths. Meanwhile, I have accumulated CZ 550s and Rugers as substitutes for the projects I had in mind for the Mausers. To finish the Mausers now would be redundant. Having factroy rifles tweeked is much cheaper than full custom assemblies, and frankly most of them are just as accurate, and just as satisfying, especially considering that I can shoot them now, and only look at Mauser parts. Now, I'm thinking of parting out the Mauser projects, and using the proceeds to finish tweeking the remaining out-of-the-box factory rifles I have. Also, the CZs and Rugers (both factory and custom barreled) are so satisfactory, that the Mausers don't seem so appealing as they used to. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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It appears, other than five or six muzzle loading rifle gunsmiths I know, that everyone else is to some extent, an assembler. There are a number of ML 'smiths who do make barrels, all of the lock and other pieces, and fashion a stock from a blank. Rich | |||
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That's interesting that you make a distinction of assembler and ????. Thinking about some of my Mauser projects: Receiver & bolt - Belgium, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Germany Bottom Metal - Various places Triggers - USA, Germany Safeties - USA, Germany Barrels - USA (various), Germany Stocks - USA various Mfg Scopes - Oregon (assembler?) It would be kinda ridiculous to try to make all the parts in the same shop, when available elsewhere for less price than most likely could be made in-house. Assembler by necessity and for practicality. As a practical matter, perhaps most "custom" rifles are the product of various persons and various countries. What gunsmith would choose to make a barrel in-house, when he could choose from various Mfg, and buy the best the world has to offer, at less than half the $ it would cost to make limited runs in-house? Just think about it - go back to the source - it would be interesting to trace the places on earth where just the raw steel in a rifle originated - every screw, every pin, every spring, and individual part. If you must have one source - say God made it, and we just put it together.  Every piece was once in the dirt and rock, and every rock and mineral was once in space, and before that there was no space, only the big bang, and before that - who knows?And now you lament the passage of the "old days" when the whole gun was made from scratch in-house. I think there has never been a gun made in-house from scratch, and never will be. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Steven Hughes, Dave Miller, D'Arcy Echols, use machine duplicated stocks, ...and I think the contraption in the workshop of Ralf martini that resembles an duplicator,aint there for decorational purposes.... | |||
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Trax, You have a PM. Warrior | |||
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I cannot see any REAL reason why any gunmaker would NOT use a pantograph and any other mechanical labour-saving devices available to cut "handtime" and still produce a unique and "bespoke" firearm for each client. I respect any who choose not to do so, but, having owned an independent speciallty business, I know well that ANY device that saves time is worth the initial investment. If, I were younger, I would have a pair of custom Brno 21s in (probably) .280Rem. built for me by Ralf and a pair of ZG-.338WMs built by Duane and I couldn't care less if either or both of these superb gunmakers and fine gentlemen used a duplicator in the creation of these rifles or not. We expect the use of a milling machine and drill press and I see no difference between these and a duplicator, when used by masters of the art. YMMV, of course. | |||
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Ever heard of the business term 'PIP'? Productivity Improvement Program What matters is QUALITY at the end of the line ... by QC, before delivery. Warrior | |||
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My opinion is the gunsmith is the ultimate responsible for it, if he has somebody that turns out the work I expect to his satisfaction, and therefore to mine, then I don't mind that. On stock pantographing, I have no problem with anything that saves labor and therefore money. I don't have as much as some people and prefer to have it go towards the final fit and finish and not the major hogging away of wood. if a guy can take a pattern, modify it for me, hog out oversize the inletting, then use some sort of material (acraglas? can't remember what they use for this) to make a perfect fit, then have that pattern copied to a blank and do the hardest 10% of the work by hand, I'm happy. I also like the idea that if I can get a pattern made to fit me, I can then use it to have my other guns restocked as well. I love seeing a stock come from a whole block of wood, but don't know if it is necessary as often any more. Red My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them. -Winston Churchill | |||
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Any machine is a step in the factory stock direction.Same for engraving. | |||
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I do believe that there are very few, if any, gunmakers who cut their stocks with a drawknife anymore! Most use a milling "Machine". And most custom engravers use a Gravermeister "machine", or the equivalent. | |||
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Like the pantograph, stock bending machines help the riflesmith save time,...... why go to all the lengthy time consuming fuss of fitting a new stock, when you can modify a perfectly good exhisting one? Would you have Purdey or H&H[or any of the other well qualified stock benders] modify your stock, or insist on having a complete new stock built with the correct dimensions? Anyone have a problem with such techniques of the highly bespoke builders? Stock bending is not uncommon in the shotgun world, and its done to shotguns costing many times more than a fine bolt rifle. Tim Carrick [ex-H&H]of Carrick Custom Guns, LexingtonN.C. does stock bending, as does; E.J. Churchill trained Andrew McFarlane. David Trevallion,of Trevallion Gunstocks,Maine. Todd Ramirez, Master Gunsmith. John Hollinger custom gun fitting. If its only the end result that matters......then reserve the more time consuming method of ...final shaping to customers dimensions with hand tools... , only for when its absolutely required,....otherwise have some pantographed patterns that you final inlet & finish up and simply custom bend into place,....correct? Strap checkering on custom 911 pistols are CNC cut and some turn out mighty good & consistent quality,..so why have a smith waste his time doing it by hand? and if technology was good enough, you could have a labor saving device that cuts checkering on the wood stock to a [programmed] desired pattern & quality. | |||
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No hell no. It seems that some here do not get the notion that the duplicator can be used as a roughing tool. Duplicators can be used to rough out blanks to an oversize pattern which then requires final shaping of all surfaces. In this case it is not the dreaded copier, it is just a rougher between the band saw and the rasp. Does anyone want to deny that a band saw is an acceptable roughing tool for getting excess wood off of a blank? | |||
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Personally, I buy only organic walnut blanks, the tree cut down by a team of trained beavers. To assure authenticity, the blanks must have retained the sweat stains from the guy who hacked off the excess tree with an ax, leaving only the blank ready to cure - by air drying for 20 years - in a log cabin, of course. It's all about the purity of the art and craft. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Just take a piece of paper and cut out a pattern with your hand using scissors and then have it done by machine and you will see the difference.You will see how cold the one done by machine will look in comparison and how beautiful certain varitions of the one done by hand can be.This is called ART. | |||
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I presume that you are talking about comparing two papers, one cut by hand and the other cut by machine? I'm kinda thinking that sissors are a machine, although hand held. A non-hand held machine is still not operating on its own, but guided by some means by an operator. They are both just tools. I don't get the concept of "cold". What I do get is at some stage the shape of the stock is roughed out, whether done with hand-held tools or machine or beavers. I don't know if one could tell the difference in the wood at this roughed out stage - maybe maybe not, but the point is that it's not relevant. What's relevant is what happens next. Regardless of how the stock is roughed out, the finishing out and final shaping is where the art and skill transforms it into a blunderbust or a high grade piece of work. I guarantee you, that if given two identical roughed out stocks, done on a duplicator, that there would be a noticable difference in the art and craftsmanship in the finished product, comparing if I did one and a real artist did the other. Another thing which I have seen more than once is a finished custom rifle with a really high grade show piece stock, with significant flaws in the metal work. In each case, all the work on the rifle was done by the same gunsmith. It was apparant that his attention to detail on wood working was much more refined than on the metal work. The net effect was a flawed rifle that looked darn good. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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re;close copy or rough oversize pattern? If one can get a machine to do as much as possible and the smith as little as possible,.. with the same end result, does it really matter?... Thats the crux of the whole debate... ie; how much does one expect their smith to do by hand? would you be content with; - someone custom bending an appropriate finished stock to your proper fit, or - final fitting & finishing of a close copy,or - do you expect a more labor intensive process ie; rough oversized panto pattern, to be shaped to your personal stock fit geometry by handtools? or - do you expect your stocker to create your stock from the blank with handtools only? | |||
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Since you are asking a question to a customer, rather than a smith, I can respond as a customer. My expectations re stocks are similar to those re metal work. I expect the smith to use the tools of his choice and skill to produce the best results, given the correct balance of time and money. I want the project to be worthwhile for him, and reasonably priced for me. I want the finished product to be excellent, and both of us to be happy with the deal. How he gets there is up to him, mostly. Whether I come back or not is up to me, and I get to decide if the balance of time, money and quality of the finished product is right. If I wasn't interested in a finished product that is something that I can't just buy machine made out-of-the-box, then I wouldn't be interested in gunsmith services in the first place. But I sure as heck don't expect him to do it all with hand tools. We have one of those guys here in town, who hung a gunsmith sign on his mobile home, in the trailer park. He has nothing but hand tools, and little skill. In other words, he's a butcher. My point is that you can't class art and skill with being just associated with hand tools and low-tech. Skill and art transcends that. There are plenty of artists who also know how to properly work a CNC machine, and know more than the on-off button on a computer. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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That would not be a custom rifle it would be original rifle. A custom rifle would be a original rifle that was changed to a customer's request. | |||
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I think a truly custom rifle would be one you designed from scratch and had each and every part manufactured to your specification. Of course once you mount an out of the box scope on it all your originality notions go down the drain. | |||
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