The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Any pictures of a nice rich rust blued rifle?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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If I am not mistaken,Rigby,Holland and Holland and the rest of the old english gunmakers used slow rust blue on their rifles.I've read that it is more durable than other types of bluing.I heard that Hartmann and Weiss are now using hot blue for most if not all their rifles.I was told rust bluing can be very hard on engraving and is likely to make my floorplate engraved lion disappear.A satin blue has been recommended for that.I would still like to go with a rich traditional rust blue on the rest of the metal including the trigger guard which has a little scroll engraving.Any thoughts on this? What kind of blue do I have on my factory CZ,Ruger or Winchester? | ||
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I do not know how it is done but the traditional British "black" is not only very pleasing to the eye but is also extremely durable and less prone to rust than any cold, hot, or common rust "blue". I have had "rust blue" done by some very fine US makers but it is not the same as "blacking". I understand that there are a few people in the USA who do the traditional British black. . | |||
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Is there a reason why H&W have changed to hot blue from slow rust blue; where did this info come from? They produce the equivalent of 'best London' guns; there must a real advantage, and not for a cost basis. http://www.ronsgunshop.com/finishes.html And it looks like D'Arcy Echols also does hot bluing (see 4th post down on the following link): http://forums.accuratereloadin...=183107703#183107703 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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As you know, rust bluing is just that! Rust!...very fine rusting, but nevertheless has a slight etching effect. Bolino will suffer fromn the effects of rust bluing (detail lost) I make this observation from personal exsperience and Lisa Tomlin will back up that statement since she had to redo one item I had only applied two coats. Caustic (hot dip) bluing is actually pretty durable..just lacks that certain "shimmer or "glow" of rust blue | |||
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Got this off of a website:
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Dear Shootaway: Here is an example of ~8-10 applications of Mark Lee Blue (a rust blueing agent sold by Brownells). It is not a slow rusting agent like Pilkingtons, which requires a damp box by the way. The original finish is 400 grit wet sanded. Its a 1951 Browning Auto 5 where I have done the metal restoration, and will be restocking. All the work, including the rust blueing was done by me. As you can see, the factory machine engraving is still sharp and clear. Rust blueing in my experience, when well oiled produces a finish that doesn't seem to rust at all even in the wettest conditions. On the other hand, almost all the hot salts factory finishes, except for Colt and Smith & Wesson revolvers seems to get a bit of surface rust if the oil dries out.  Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Shootaway: In addition, I've used this Mark Lee Rust Blue finish on about 10-15 other rifles and shotguns, some of which I've hunted with in downpours with not a stitch of rust showing up. My 1976 Marlin 39A got a bit of rust during a summer shoot with a few fingerprints left on it. My 1968 Remington Model 700 ADL, same fingerprint rust, and my Savage 444 from the 1960's a bit of fingerprint rust, too. All easily cleaned up with 320 grit steel wool. Now, I'm pretty meticulous with my firearms, but with the rust blued guns, never a sign of rust. Interestingly, the Colt Python and Smith & Wesson 586 that I used to own, even during pretty sweaty summer groundhog shoots here in Pennsylvania with 95 degree/95% humidity never rusted. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Thanks Chris. | |||
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Thanks Grenadier. | |||
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Here is a photo of a nice, rich rust blue done on an 03 Springfield by Adolph Minar in the early 1930's  But D'Arcy Echols is not the only one who claims that today's best hot blues are the most durable - many of the top-end Italian builders like Fabbri and Bosis claim the same thing. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Rust Bluing ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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Thanks Steve. Good education is what we all need. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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true to their bespoke nature, H&W will offer the blue process the customer desires. If one wants their metal polished to the finest degree, one is better off with the hot blue process. Rust blue, IIUC, requires a certain degree of metal surface roughness for the best result. | |||
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No matter what you call it there is no magic. Bluing in whatever form it is applied is rust --that is, an oxide of iron. Iron has 5 oxidation states. Read all about rust and you will understand more about "bluing". In the end it is usually the quality of the metal's surface texture that gives bluing its appeal. Ask any of the pros here about the way they prepare and polish the metal parts. That is the art form regardless of how it is made brown, black or blue. | |||
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Thanks SDH. I like that Milling Machine with the steel wool wheel. That set up would help with my occasional carpal tunnel flair ups. Again like SR4759 said, its all about preparation, just like painting a car or a house. Quick prep, lousy paint job. I could never go back to hot salts blueing after rust blueing. That satin 320 or 400 grit finish just feels right and looks right. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear Phil: Absolutely sweet work. 26-28 lpi on the stock checkering to boot. Didn't Jack O'Connor call Adolph Minar a genius? I'll bet not a speck of rust after all these years either. Eh? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Modern bead blasting combined with high quality hot blue can produce surprisingly pleasing results. Not all bead blast media is the same. Whats required is careful selection of the appropriate blast media and particle size. A less aggressive media will produce more the satin glow, the more aggressive media more the matte appearance. or in other words, the more subtle media[glass beads] produce a smoother brighter finish,i.e; they lean more toward polishing the metal. ... the more aggressive hard & sharp edged particle media[Alluminium Oxide] leans more toward etching the metal. Actually, the correct bead blast combined with some of the modern metal coatings such as DLC, is most appropriate for a non-glare metalwork custom hunting rifle. DLC coated:  DLC over highly polished steel;  | |||
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I have seen some top quality custom rifles with rust blued metal that have places where the bluing is streaked with a different color--usually a brownish rather than "blue" tone. This is generally not visible under indoor lighting but stands out in bright sunlight. For picky fussy types, this detracts from the rifle, especially when everything else is perfect. I have also seen factory Pre-War Model 70 Winchesters with rust blued barrels that have turned a little plum colored over time. Generally, it's not the entire surface. I personally prefer rust bluing but have not seen the streaking or plum color problem on hot blued metal. | |||
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Trax,although this method may be durable and very cool,I don`t find it "soft" enough for a classic bolt action rifle.It is too modern or hi-tech for me.Just by looking at it I get the feeling that special chemicals and machines were used.I like the idea of hand made craft for my rifle.SDH`s picture of his blued rifle looks very attractive to me. | |||
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Plum coloring is very common in hot bluing. Ruger rifles are famous for it. Streaking or blotching is just a poor initial job, not a consequence of age or use. Unless something changed, Half Moon Rifle Shop does D'Arcy Echols' hot bluing. He does NOT polish, at least not for the general public. You send him something, you get it back the same way but blued. Apparently he is something of a chemical artist. He is also the maker of Gun Goddess rust bluing solution which I like to use. He sells the carding wheel like in SDH's link. Could be the same as Brownell's, not sure. I wish just once someone would specifiy what english "blacking" involves. I read everywhere exactly what is said above but so far, I have been unable to find detailed information for the process. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Dunlap covers "blacking" very well in his book "Gunsmithing". Says he: "Contrary to general opinion, black finishing steel by use of a single hot bath chemical solution is not very new - some processes have been known and used since 1910. World War II gave the system cosiderable impetus, as a great deal of improvement work on the various formulae and chemicals produced stable mixtures and standardized procedures. The black oxidizing of steel at low temperature was patented in 1901, but little development work was done until after WW I, after which interest again languished for a good many years. Around 1936 prepared salts and chemical mixture became available to gunsmiths and rapidly became popular. After the second war, these preparations swept the business and almost totally eliminated the older methods of bluing, because of the facts that they were cheap and time saving. Although advertised as blues, and capable of producing a satisfactory gun blue on alloy steels, these chemical finishes are really black, and are known industrially as black oxides. Ordinary steels come out black, not blue. All have a slight etching action on steel, and many industrial users take advantage of this to remove microscopic burrs from machined parts." Whether or not his explanation relates to "English" blacking, your guess is as good as mine. | |||
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I understand that you may prefer the appearance of some other surface treatment[rust blue]...but you consider blasting/DLC too modern or high tech because of the use of special chemicals and machines?...seriuously? Im sure you do realize that "special modern machines" are often used in todays classic style custom rifle component manufacture[CNC of metal parts,stock duplicators,CNC etching/engraving of letter&numbers,advancedd chemical coolants]....what I don't understand is why some people are accepting of use of modern machines/processes for some parts of the rifle build but object to it for another part of the build process. Theres nothing perculiar or odd about using modern chemicals or compositions and up to date techniques in todays custom rifles,...new M98 actions have different/improved alloys over original mausers[same with modern single shots & double rifles],heat treatment is more scientific-precise and advanced, same with metal finish. I bet most folks would have very hard time telling difference between well executed hot blue and well executed DLC. Is this pre64 receiver blued or DLC coated?  What about these barrels,...Blued or DLC?  | |||
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The Winchester is a modern job and the shotgun is blued,IMO.I would have trouble telling a fake Rolex apart from a real one,but if I look at them enough I`ll figure it out. | |||
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Just like modern alloys in new M98 are not intended to fake original M98 alloys, DLC is also not intended to create a fake blue. Its an independently designed/developed industrial coating, that just so happens to be applicable to firearms- and quite satisfactorily pleasing to the eye on classic customs. As far as Rolex goes, they have seen sense in copying certain modern design improvements/features from other major Swiss watch movement makers. Rolex followed ETA’s lead in using new micro-gear toothing and dial trains in order to reduce both the free play between gearing and to simultaneously reduce the friction of the glucydur teeth rolling on the steel pinions....Rolex over time, have also refined/improved gear tooth geometry and improved the alloys used. | |||
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If I can do this... it can't be hard.  | |||
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Dear Trax: Your pre-64 action pictured was re-polished, since the original receiver surface was matte. Looks depend on photography and lighting, so I can't tell if its rust blued or DLC. I think that Shootaway wants a rust blued finish to resemble an older style of pre-WW-II bespoke rifle. I had a 1949 pre-64 re-blued with hot salts by a pro, and it came out quite nice. Most of the post war Model 70's were hot salts blued at the factory as far as I know, so that was a restoration of an original finish. The English guns I think were mostly rust blued, but some have different satin type finishes. I am not an expert. Neverthless, I've experimented with bead blasted matte through 220 to 800 grit finishes before rust blueing using Mark Lee Blue, and the 320-400 grit finish produces the best finish in my opinion. As far as wear is concerned, my Glock 21 can take about anything, but the rust blued rifles and shotguns I've done really can stand up to rainy day hunting and sweaty hands better than most of the hot salts factory finishes that I've seen. Depends on what you like. I like the satin dark grey/black of a rust blued finish. Yeah, I even went the teflon route years ago. Hated it. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Dear RichJ: Nice job. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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I myself appreciate a high quality deep rust blue and also the high quality-highly durable hot blue process as used by Echols&Co..[some of which are high gloss, other examples being lightly dulled/satin in appearance.] In both cases there only a select few that can deliver such results. orig. Rigby:  | |||
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Bluing and blacking are methods of chemically changing the surface of the gun steel. Essentially, in the process, the steel is pre-rusted on the surface. DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) is a type of Physical Vapor Deposition, or PVD, coating. The material is deposited on the metal surface as a coating. The gun steel is not chemically changed in the process. DLC can be applied to either blued steel or steel in the white. DLC was developed to provide a super hard and abrasion resistant coating on industrial metal parts like bearings, drills, razor blades, pistons, engine valves, gears, and shafts. It also has a very low coefficient of friction and, because it coats the underlying metal, it acts as a barrier to corrosion. It provides a very durable surface. There is nothing wrong with coating firearms with DLC. The use of DLC on handguns has become commonplace. Pistols coated with DLC can withstand a lot of carrying in the holster before the finish begins to wear. Auto pistol slides and frames benefit from the reduced friction. DLC is one of the best gun coatings available. However, DLC does not look like and does not feel like rust blued steel. I would consider coating my 1911 pistol or AR-15 with DLC. I would not for a minute consider coating any fine gun with the stuff. . | |||
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Nice job! And your right, it ain't rocket science. | |||
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No, but the polishing will flat wear you out. Nice job! "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Shootaway, who does Ralph usually use for his blueing? | |||
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I don`t know.I discussed this just briefly a couple of times and said that I wanted rust bluing.Now that I have some nice engraving on the floor plate it creates a problem.Ralf said that he will email me some pics of of a hot blued take-down he just finished.I asked if he had any pics of a rifle he rust blued in the past.The next week or two should bring more light on this. | |||
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I would go with the hot caustic blue Ralph does. There are some pretty outstanding names in the business that use hot caustic blue on some pretty expensive rifles for some pretty discriminating clients. | |||
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Some things the client should choose, some things are best left to the builder himself. I would ask Ralph for his advice and follow it. Probably as many fine rifles are ruined by bad choices as by bad workmanship. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Now there's a quote worthy of a sticky at the top of this forum. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Reminds me of what an engineer I once worked with liked to say, " It's fine as form, fit, and function goes, but it looks like pan hammered shit." | |||
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Do you think using rust blue will ruin a rifle? I feel sorry for those who ruined there rifles. | |||
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Who provides DLC services for firearms? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Do you think Ralphs hot caustic blue will? You have already stated that a rust blue may indeed ruin your floorplate. | |||
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