quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
$1500 would dress up each action quite nicely but I'm afraid the worst thing you could put on those actions would be a $1500 game scene.

Interesting....meaning a $1500 game scene would look cheap or owned by a 2 bit pimp?

Thanks for the opinion Forrest....

I talked to a couple of engravers that I like so far,one was not close to my budget....that's ok though.

I did come across some fine english scroll that I like. Anyway the learning curve will flatten out once I sit down with some engravers in January.



I really like this rifle.

That Ottmer job is the wolrk of Roger Kehr (Scrollcutter)

Some awesome talent at work here..As for me I would love tasteful engraving on my rifles, but fear I would leave the gun at home for my one and only closet queen...

Safari life and the avid hunter will sooner or later rough up any rifle so my one and only engraved rifle was an accident. It is an old guild small ring Mauser rifle, full rib barrel,butterknife bolt handle, claw mounts, decent engraving. I bought it for next to nothing and rebuilt it. rebored and rechambered the shot out 9x57 barrel to a 375x62..It won't bother me to hunt it, and its a very nice gun..

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Von Gruff:

It may call to you, but the engraving quality is mediocre, at best. However, I like the minimalist design and the layout.

Gatogordo,

Do you see anything posted here that you like?

I like most of what I see posted here.

Anyone who can't tell that the engraving I called mediocre is mediocre hasn't looked at much engraving. Look at the scrolls, see how many of them are not quite circular, scrunched up, have angles instead of curves on inside of scroll, etc. A good example is the first (rear) set on left side or receiver and the second scroll from rear on floor plate. I didn't call it horrible, just mediocre. As I said, I like the design, I would be proud to have the rifle, but it is what it is.

There may be a few, very damn few, engravers in the world that exceed Winston Churchill's work, but I personally doubt that you've found one that can get to you in 2013.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Von Gruff:

It may call to you, but the engraving quality is mediocre, at best. However, I like the minimalist design and the layout.

Gatogordo,

Do you see anything posted here that you like?

I like most of what I see posted here.

Anyone who can't tell that the engraving I called mediocre is mediocre hasn't looked at much engraving. Look at the scrolls, see how many of them are not quite circular, scrunched up, have angles instead of curves on inside of scroll, etc. A good example is the first (rear) set on left side or receiver and the second scroll from rear on floor plate. I didn't call it horrible, just mediocre. As I said, I like the design, I would be proud to have the rifle, but it is what it is.

There may be a few, very damn few, engravers in the world that exceed Winston Churchill's work, but I personally doubt that you've found one that can get to you in 2013.

I've looked at a fair amount of engraving and have done some scrimshanding myself and I still respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Why don't you show us some examples of fine engraving on some of your own rifles?
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:




I really like this rifle.

That Ottmer job is the wolrk of Roger Kehr (Scrollcutter)[/QUOTE]

I have come to appreciate engravings that have less in their design. I would describe it as like the quiet passages in between orchestral music. One master that comes to mind is Rudolph Kornbrath....understated elegance.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by FAST996:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Von Gruff:

It may call to you, but the engraving quality is mediocre, at best. However, I like the minimalist design and the layout.

Gatogordo,

Do you see anything posted here that you like?

I like most of what I see posted here.

Anyone who can't tell that the engraving I called mediocre is mediocre hasn't looked at much engraving. Look at the scrolls, see how many of them are not quite circular, scrunched up, have angles instead of curves on inside of scroll, etc. A good example is the first (rear) set on left side or receiver and the second scroll from rear on floor plate. I didn't call it horrible, just mediocre. As I said, I like the design, I would be proud to have the rifle, but it is what it is.

There may be a few, very damn few, engravers in the world that exceed Winston Churchill's work, but I personally doubt that you've found one that can get to you in 2013.

I've looked at a fair amount of engraving and have done some scrimshanding myself and I still respectfully disagree with your assessment.

Why don't you show us some examples of fine engraving on some of your own rifles?
Regards, Joe

I collect engraving but don't do pics. Most of my engraving collection is shotguns or pistols but I have a few rifles as well. Suffice to say that I have better and worse examples of scroll than the one in question and you obviously don't know what you're talking about. You may like that example of engraving work, and that's fine, but whether you agree or disagree with my evaluation of it is immaterial, it still is what it is and I have shown you why and where to look to learn that it is not top quality work. You can lead a horse's ass to water but you can't make him think. I've spent extremely large sums of money over the years buying coins where the smallest amount of differences on the surfaces can, and often does, translate into thousands or tens of thousands of dollars worth of difference in market value. After learning and doing that for a while, evaluating the physical quality of engraving is a piece of cake. Then the only thing left is a matter of tastes. For instance when I was much younger, the more gold the better. Now I prefer much less or none. A few gold lines or borders maximum seem more preferable to MY tastes now.

There are many really good engravers around, including many Americans. Given my choice, I'd prefer bulino by Angelo Galeazzi, Torcoli, Pedersoli or Fracassi(s)(pere et fille). I have some of Galeazzi's work on a couple of Francotte's I own, and, from memory which can be wrong since I am terrible on names, and since I don't know where I put it to look, an A&S shotgun SxS done by Pedersoli. I doubt that I'll ever be able to afford a Torcoli or Fracassi engraved gun especially since I have basically quit buying guns anymore. I have a Torcoli style nude fantasy by Mara Galeazzi on a Perazzi. Her work is somewhat better than mediocre but not nearly the quality of her Daddy or the master Torcoli who developed the concept. I paid $25,000 for that gun (asking price was 30K) and would sell it for 10% less if you have any interest.

Gatogordo, judging by your words you obviously think I'm an inexperienced horse's ass who can't think.

That particular road runs both ways.

Now that you have bragged so much about your 'collection'(?), maybe some here will be impressed. However I've never been impressed by a braggart, especially one who is apparently incapable of doing any artistic work of his(your) own.

All that bulino work you cite is impressive all right, at least at first glance, but it absolutely SCREAMS 'safe queen' and will never last long under use. Basically that sort of work is done to get big bux out of stay-at-home dilletantes rather than for any serious users. I'm NOT a fan, but that's why they make both chocolate and vanilla (grin).
Regards, Joe

I would focus your hard earned pennies on functional engraving, namely, stippling on the sight ramps, neat engraving on the sights themselves, stippling / checking on the quarter rib and top of receiver. Checking on the safety and latch for bottom plate. Then have the calibre properly engrave rather than stamped and makers name or your own neatly engrave on the barrel.

Then spend the rest of pennies on getting a really good deep blue finish. Nice rose and scroll looks good on a double, but on a bolt just looks bling to my mind.

quote:

Gatogordo, judging by your words you obviously think I'm an inexperienced horse's ass who can't think.

That particular road runs both ways.

I don't think it, I know it. Your long inane diatribes in the recent Satterlee thread proved that. Your road means zero to me when I consider the source.

I wasn't bragging, just stating facts about my experiences and why I KNOW I can judge the quality of engraving work, just as your responses indicate that you cannot. As far as your being "impressed" goes, see above and you will understand why your opinion is of zero import to me. Now if you have a comment on gunsmithing, which you might know something about, then that might have some validity.

I certainly can not do any artistic work on my own that approaches the level of a good engraver and don't intend to try. That's why people buy engraving.

Your "safe queen" may get used everyday by others. Whether it's used or not, so what? Wouldn't that be the owners choice? I suppose you don't like freedom of choice if it disagrees with your idea of "correct" usage. There's that horse, again. And with that, unlike the Satterlee thread, I leave you to wallow in mind.

2 points, Gatogordo:

Firstly, I'm a satisfied Satterlee customer who got what he ordered in less time than initially promised (twice!), while the mainmost weasel-like complainer was too cowardly to acknowledge his own repeated obfuscations or even his own true identity. In the end, he tucked his tail and ran back under the porch to be with his Mommy.

Secondly, we're talking DGRs here on this thread, not some limp-wristed Italian shotgun where the bling decoration seems to be more important than the performance.

So, you don't like me because of my response on the Satterlee thread, where I showed up a pompous whining ass for what he really was? Funny how I'm not surprised at your animosity...birds of a feather it seems.
You have a good day now, y'hear? Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
I would focus your hard earned pennies on functional engraving, namely, stippling on the sight ramps, neat engraving on the sights themselves,stippling / checking on the quarter rib and top of receiver. Checking on the safety and latch for bottom plate. Then have the calibre properly engrave rather than stamped and makers name or your own neatly engrave on the barrel.

Then spend the rest of pennies on getting a really good deep blue finish. Nice rose and scroll looks good on a double, but on a bolt just looks bling to my mind.

SR20 you raise a good point for me...

Question......is the stippling that I see examples of, done by the engraver or metalsmith?

Also since these will be the first custom rifles that I would have engraving done,is the engraving best done before or after the trip to the stockmaker?

And another question....rust bluing,does it require the barrels to be R&R'd ?

OK fine I'll wade in. Its my rifle you two are going back and forth on. I commissioned the engraving from an English engraver with a long pedigree because I wanted it to look correct, period, and ENGLISH. It is just to my tastes and looks as I had hoped. I do recognize that each scroll is not perfectly round and some folks prefer the more modern take on engraving. Myself, I do not care for bulino, gold or game scenes. I like simple and traditional. To each his own, but perfectly cut very fine scroll would not be at home a W.J. Jeffery rifle of pre-12910 vintage. I try to restore and build guns with a bit of restraint and I think the engraving on this .404 accomplished that quite well. As one engraver I know once stated "English scroll is meant to be viewed like a forest, the little differences make up the woods. If everything is too perfect and symmetrical it ends up looks like a tree farm, not a natural wood."
Steve Bertram

Some more from the same Brit and I think it looks just right on a working gun.







the metal checkering was done by on mill, the engraver did the stippling and border work.

skb....very nice.

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
2 points, Gatogordo:

Firstly, I'm a satisfied Satterlee customer who got what he ordered in less time than initially promised (twice!), while the mainmost weasel-like complainer was too cowardly to acknowledge his own repeated obfuscations or even his own true identity. In the end, he tucked his tail and ran back under the porch to be with his Mommy.

I am sure Satterlee was glad that the subject had died, But JD in his genius has now decided to revive things.

Satterlees reputation for poor delivery/customer service on major orders like actions and rifles is legendary.
More than enough AR folk that regretably got involved with Satterlee over the yrs -by pooring many thousands of dollars his way,
have strongly testified to that.

Infact,Satterlee himself indicated to me in recent months, that he was very much behind on customer orders.

Clearly something that Satterlee did not make JdSteele privy to....which is understandable,
cause If one is only ordering a safety, theres no reason for Satterlee to inform that person of the backlog of well overdue work orders for actions/rifles.

MY situation was rather simple;

I payed in full and upfront, for a receiver that [prior to ordering] Satterlee said would be completed in a few months.

Well over three yrs later, I was struggling to get the product or refund.

A refund which I am still in the process of resolving.

Hopefully JD wont continue to infect this thread about DGRengraving, with his poorly informed senseless babbling concerning Satterlee & his major purchase customers.

Trax, your goodbuddy Gatogordo was the one who sidetracked us when HE resurrected the Satterlee subject during his personal attack on me. Once again you prove your stupidity as well as your semi-literacy.

You and Gatogordo seem like a good match though, perhaps he can teach you to spell and proofread.
Hugs and kisses, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
Trax, your goodbuddy Gatogordo was the one who sidetracked us when HE resurrected the Satterlee subject during his personal attack on me. Once again you prove your stupidity as well as your semi-literacy.

And by your own volition in this thread, you have managed once again to repeat your long inane diatribe concerning Satterlee
and his major order customers....Which you are not one of.

You have proven you are just as grossly ignorant now, as you were back then.
If you want to continue highlighting-reviving bad press for Satterlee, be my guest.
Your decision to once again start attacking his payed-up major order customers,
.. is certainly a very effective way to do it.

skb,
I like your engraving. I'm sure not an expert, but I know what I like.

SKB, that rifle looks fantastic....I'd rather have that engraving than any $1500 game scene...maybe any game scene.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
skb,I like your engraving. I'm sure not an expert, but I know what I like.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
SKB, that rifle looks fantastic....I'd rather have that engraving than any $1500 game scene...maybe any game scene.

+1

Thank you gentlemen. I really like a classic rifle with minimal engraving. I'm building 2 custom Springfields currently and at least one of them will get a nice border treatment with just a touch of scroll here and there. That one will be my own rifle and it has been heavily influenced by some of the builds that Mr. petrov has been kind enough to write about and photograph.

Here's my own 270, 2nd barrel, third scope, put in service in 1986. OK..it's not a DGR, but example of what happens to engraving over time. The top half looks pretty good...it's the bottom metal that takes the beating.

This was done for me by the late Giuseppi Forte. Maybe a bit more than I would have ordered, but I gave him carte blanche.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe:
Here's my own 270, 2nd barrel, third scope, put in service in 1986. OK..it's not a DGR, but example of what happens to engraving over time. The top half looks pretty good...it's the bottom metal that takes the beating.

This was done for me by the late Giuseppi Forte. Maybe a bit more than I would have ordered, but I gave him carte blanche.

Duane,

Very classic and beautiful. Giving carte blanche to a true artist like Forte is no mistake,a very fine 270. The floorplate design has all the elements that I like,perfect composition of the artsistic elements,very pleasing to my eye.

Duane...the engraving looks as fine as frog hair. The bluing seems to have taken a hit.

I've seen this rifle and the engraving example is as nice as you will find...anywhere.

I'm an engraver so my opinion is not very objective. That said, I think this rifle looks better with the engraving than it would without. Even further than that, I think the full coverage engraving looks better with the nicely nuanced open spaces than minimal engraving does. Engraving's most basic and primal objective is to break up open expanses of metal. Beyond that, it becomes an artistic endeavor.

Oops, did that sound like a rant? Wasn't intentional...

quote:

Originally posted by Scrollcutter:
Duane...the engraving looks as fine as frog hair. The bluing seems to have taken a hit.

I've seen this rifle and the engraving example is as nice as you will find...anywhere.

I'm an engraver so my opinion is not very objective. That said, I think this rifle looks better with the engraving than it would without. Even further than that, I think the full coverage engraving looks better with the nicely nuanced open spaces than minimal engraving does. Engraving's most basic and primal objective is to break up open expanses of metal. Beyond that, it becomes an artistic endeavor.

Oops, did that sound like a rant? Wasn't intentional...

+1

Roger: Very sound thoughts...But...if you can zoom in on the tgrigger guard, you'll see what I mean about taking a beating

I've always thought honest wear added to the character of a rifle.

The Rhino scene in this thread is very good. I'm no expert but the vast majority of game scenes and women with dyslexic tits look cheesy. If it looks like it was drawn in pencil by a great artist then I like it. Some looks like a black and white photo and I find it amazing, but probably not on my rifle.

Oh, I do see the damage now. Missed it the first time through.

Guess the engraving camouflaged it. Har!!!

I am terrible at being a smart ass, but I do love trying.

Roger, are you coming to DSC this year?

No, unfortunately I won't be going this year.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
There is some beautiful work shown here but I have to wonder how many days afield any of them will actually experience on hunts for DG ?

I suppose if I were to have any of my DG rifles engraved - especially on a budget - I would start with simple scrolls surrounding lettering stating blood type and next of kin

Phil,

Can you imagine that .458 of yours fully engraved with gold inlays and game scene on the floor plate! Never seen it in person of course but from the pictures, that is a working rifle if there ever was one. Strangely enough, I find that 458 to be very attractive!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
There is some beautiful work shown here but I have to wonder how many days afield any of them will actually experience on hunts for DG ?

I suppose if I were to have any of my DG rifles engraved - especially on a budget - I would start with simple scrolls surrounding lettering stating blood type and next of kin

Phil,

Can you imagine that .458 of yours fully engraved with gold inlays and game scene on the floor plate! Never seen it in person of course but from the pictures, that is a working rifle if there ever was one. Strangely enough, I find that 458 to be very attractive!

I have talked about hauling this thing down to the guild show but have been told by a couple of makers that they probably would not let it in the door

Guess it doesn't matter as I wouldn't look at the engraving much anyway - not that I am immune to the attraction of fine engraving but because if you take time to look around the scenery is usually better than any engraving.

How many bears do you figure that 458 has been in on Phil? It definitely has character! I've wondered about the scope however. I would have thought you would prefer open sights in the thick stuff up close. Any story behind using the scope instead of open sights?

I did a lot of testing of various sights when I built the 458 - and have done others since and at any range past 10 yards the scope is faster and more accurate for me than any irons. And under 10 yards I can hit fastest simply by shooting instinctively and it doesn't make a difference whether the scope is on the rifle or not.
Even in thick stuff at close ranges the scope is preferable to iron sights as it allows me to make out tiny details in thick brush.

There is nothing better than a game scene done right,IMO.Just looking at it puts you in a different world.I bet you can remember a rifle by the game scene you saw-besides, game scenes are accompagnied by scroll so you get both.