Let me start my describing a bit about how I hunt. I live on a ranch here in Texas. It is a mix of hardwood bottoms and improved pasture. Over the years, I have developed a style of hunting wild hogs for myself that I believe is most similar to African safari style spot and stalk. I will take a rifle and take off walking through areas I know to be productive until I spot a sounder. I will then move based on wind conditions and other animals until I have positioned myself as close as possible to start shooting. I like to tell people, you don’t get close for the first shot. Anyone can make the first shot from wherever when they are sitting still. You get closer for the follow up running shots.

I have spent a number of years searching for the best bullet for this style of hunting. The challenge has been the size range of pigs. Any given hunt could have you shooting a 50# pig to a 300# boar. It was hard to find a bullet that would perform on the entire range of body sizes likely to be encountered. A bullet frangible enough to perform on small pigs would underperform on large pigs. By the same token, a bullet that would penetrate well on large pigs like a partition would often be less than satisfactory on a smaller animal for me. The solution has came to me over the last couple of years in the form of the .30 caliber 208 gr ELD-M.

This bullet launched between 2700-2800 FPS is murder on everything I’ve hit with it. Frangible enough to punch extremely nasty wounds through smaller bodied game, but enough sectional density to shoulder punch even the biggest boars reliably. I’ve played with it in 30-06 and 300 win mag. Problem with those calibers is that to achieve those velocities is loading the 30-06 hotter than I really like to do given in typically using my rifles in hot and dirty conditions here in Texas and it is under loading the Win mag a bit.

The velocity I’m looking for falls into the capabilities of the 300 WSM and the 300 H&H solidly. I like to use bolt rifles, usually of a Model 70 or Mauser persuasion. For my purposes shooting at ranges of sometimes less than 30 yards, smooth and reliable feeding vastly outweighs accuracy in my priority list. That removes the various short mags form serious contention for me. It also seems to put the 300 H&H solidly in the lead. However, pigs tend to travel in large groups. So magazine capacity is important to me. Being able to hold 4-5 rounds in the magazine can make the difference in getting that last pig or having to go for a reload and missing out.

So I was getting ready to have a 300 H&H built as it seemed to check the most boxes until I discovered the wildcats that lengthen the 30-06 case, primarily the 300 Sherman and 30 Gibbs. From what I can tell, the main difference in the Gibbs and Sherman is a 35 degree vs 40 degree shoulder. Gibbs also has the option headstamped brass available. Was posting this up to see what people thought of these 3 choices as chamberings in a light CRF rifle made for rough conditions and shooting from field positions. The issues I keep thinking about are feeding reliability (are there significant differences between the cartridges in inherent feeding reliability) and practicalities of ownership. Any thoughts or experience with these is welcome. I will be loading the 208 grain ELD-M into which ever of the 3 is used. So factory ammo availability is of no concern to me. Factory brass is a plus though.

Having delivered a lot of 300 H#H rifles, never heard a complaint. Easy recoil, and the case just lends itself to smooth feeding.

On a custom, magazine capacity can be me to just about anything you like (wihin reason, of course)...Six shooter? no problem!

What types of sacrifices would have to be made to get that type of magazine capacity for an H&H?

How far are you shooting? Sounds like you are in combat and need lots of suppressive fire; get a semi auto BAR and use that.
300 H&H bolt action with extended mag? No sacrifice; only money.
Parsing the differences in those large 300s is like discussing virtues of whores. You won't be able to tell any difference.
Personally I don't use 30 cal for anything. It's either too big or too small.
No matter how fast. 338 RUM is good. or Lapua.

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"is like discussing virtues of whores. You won't be able to tell any difference"

Great analogy- could be said for most of the Outdoor Lifeish discussions on this site 'A' vs "B"- which is better. No offense meant to anyone. BTW, before I get flamed, I don't read those discussions anyway.

The path of least resistance for what you're describing I to get a pre-64 Winchester M70 in .300 H&H. This will give you a properly designed magazine box that will give you 4+1 capacity in the rifle. Most of them function well, as long as they haven't suffered a case of kitchen table gunsmithing... And Hornady's load data supports your 208 gr ELD-M velocity requirment in the H&H.

I had to look up what exactly the 300 Sherman is and an amused by the performance claim of the cartridge. According to their literature, it is an "improved" 30-06 that equals .300 Wby performance (200 gr bullet at 3,000fps). That's abject horseshit. I'd stay away from that'd creation.

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Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
What types of sacrifices would have to be made to get that type of magazine capacity for an H&H?

As dcpd said: A drop magazine with cavity floor plate would get the job done and look proper.

I have a pre-war Model 70 in 300 H&H that is a perfect candidate for having something built out of. It is in some sort of strange wooden stock with a very pronounced pistol grip and finger grooves. The finish on it strongly resembles black spray paint. Have been pondering doing something fun with it.

The caliber question is really in regards to a project Mr. Satterlee is doing for me. I’ve discussed it as a 300 H&H build and feel like that is PROBABLY the right answer. I have just discovered the 30 Gibbs (actually in a Facebook post he made) and the 300 Sherman since. Part of the goal is to end up with a very light rifle. Thus Mr. Satterlee building me a titanium mauser. I just have been enjoying pondering the differences in each of these cartridges in my off times.

To explain a bit more of how I use a rifle in response to some comments, yes. A semi automatic actually does work well for what I do. I have used them to great effect. But they get boring as multiple shots are made easy. A nice bolt action and making multiple hits is much more satisfying to the soul. Range typically starts at roughly 30 yards and can run out to 2-300 yards on the last shot depending on how far away from a wood line I find game.

A typical stalk will involve me spotting them from several hundred yards away. I will then move in closer to take the first shot. Usually moving cover to cover and often crawling in on all fours to final shooting position. Then will usually shoot from a knee to get above grass. I move in so that my subsequent shots are closer as the game moves away as you start shooting.

The three cartridges I’m asking about all fall into the same velocity window at the ranges I am after. None of them are super magnums. The goal is just a tad more velocity than the 30-06 is comfortable at with 200+ grain bullets. I am essentially curious if there is any inherent advantages in any of the cartridge designs for the best possible feeding and magazine capacity while maintaining a light and trim rifle.

Thank you to everyone who has responded and joined in on this discussion so far.

Keechi Kid is the real deal and his hog hunting style is a blast. He had my son and I down to his ranch this past spring. The most fun I've ever had hunting hogs!

+2 for the .300 H&H (but you already know my opinion

The group I use to hog hunt with.

We always hunted spot and stalk or just still hunted them in the thick.

A great time much better then over bait.

Matt demonstrated that his rifles meet the standards I’m discussing for sure. He was putting down multiples with one of his rifles after crawling through some creek bottom mud. I will probably be sending that pre war to him when I finally settle on what to do with it.

The 300 H&H is probably the right answer for a lot of reasons. I just suffer from a desire to find some unique and esoteric answer at times. What kind of world would it be if we all settled on a Model 70 in 30-06 to do all our killing with? (Probably an efficient one, if boringly so)

Which is why I wouldn't be caught dead in the field with a 30-06.
Or anything off the rack except a double rifle.

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Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
Matt demonstrated that his rifles meet the standards I’m discussing for sure. He was putting down multiples with one of his rifles after crawling through some creek bottom mud. I will probably be sending that pre war to him when I finally settle on what to do with it.

The 300 H&H is probably the right answer for a lot of reasons. I just suffer from a desire to find some unique and esoteric answer at times. What kind of world would it be if we all settled on a Model 70 in 30-06 to do all our killing with? (Probably an efficient one, if boringly so)

The nice thing about hogs, The chance of multiple target opportunities.

On a hog hunt a would bring 3 or more rifles in 3 or more calibers. Shoot several hogs with each just because I could.

My favorite in the thick stuff was a 18.5 inch 03 scout rifle in 06 loaded with 220gr RN just around 2350fps.

While still being able to kill hogs and yotes out 200 yards.

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What kind of world would it be if we all settled on a Model 70 in 30-06 to do all our killing with?

Answer: A perfect world! Some rifles are made to perfection and can't be improved.

Oh yeah. Pigs make an amazing practice subject for your skills both in stalking and shooting. They are also a great test medium for bullet performance. My goal with every rifle I get in is to try different sets of bullets in game and see how they perform. Both from the standpoint of results from the animal’s behavior after the shot and the bullets performance in the cadaver

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Originally posted by Keechi Kid:
Oh yeah. Pigs make an amazing practice subject for your skills both in stalking and shooting. They are also a great test medium for bullet performance. My goal with every rifle I get in is to try different sets of bullets in game and see how they perform. Both from the standpoint of results from the animal’s behavior after the shot and the bullets performance in the cadaver

To be young again.

There is a saying about the firearms world.

I have found that it is mostly true.

What is old is new, What is new is old.

In 1971 I was in Kenya, hunting on a very large ranch owned by the Italian car maker, Lancia. The manager was my PH's brother-in-law.

The ranch was encircled with a six foot high game fence to keep out predators. Driving along a dirt road, we happened upon a pack of Cape hunting dogs which had just killed an impala. My PH asked me if I would mind thinning out the pack a bit, since they were a real threat to the cattle and sheep on the ranch. I got out of the car with my pre-64 Model 70 .300 H&H and walked toward the dogs, who ignored me. When I got to close enough range, I shot one of the dogs and the rest fled. I emptied the magazine and ended up with a total of four dogs with five shots.

The Model 70 performed flawlessly, as I expected it to do. I never took the rifle out of my shoulder during the entire encounter.

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Originally posted by xausa:
In 1971 I was in Kenya, hunting on a very large ranch owned by the Italian car maker, Lancia. The manager was my PH's brother-in-law.

The ranch was encircled with a six foot high game fence to keep out predators. Driving along a dirt road, we happened upon a pack of Cape hunting dogs which had just killed an impala. My PH asked me if I would mind thinning out the pack a bit, since they were a real threat to the cattle and sheep on the ranch. I got out of the car with my pre-64 Model 70 .300 H&H and walked toward the dogs, who ignored me. When I got to close enough range, I shot one of the dogs and the rest fled. I emptied the magazine and ended up with a total of four dogs with five shots.

The Model 70 performed flawlessly, as I expected it to do. I never took the rifle out of my shoulder during the entire encounter.

As a target shooter, all those strings of rapid fire trained you well. But after the fifth shot did you reach for a stripper clip?

John

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Originally posted by gasgunner:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
In 1971 I was in Kenya, hunting on a very large ranch owned by the Italian car maker, Lancia. The manager was my PH's brother-in-law.

The ranch was encircled with a six foot high game fence to keep out predators. Driving along a dirt road, we happened upon a pack of Cape hunting dogs which had just killed an impala. My PH asked me if I would mind thinning out the pack a bit, since they were a real threat to the cattle and sheep on the ranch. I got out of the car with my pre-64 Model 70 .300 H&H and walked toward the dogs, who ignored me. When I got to close enough range, I shot one of the dogs and the rest fled. I emptied the magazine and ended up with a total of four dogs with five shots.

The Model 70 performed flawlessly, as I expected it to do. I never took the rifle out of my shoulder during the entire encounter.

As a target shooter, all those strings of rapid fire trained you well. But after the fifth shot did you reach for a stripper clip?

John

Chuckle chuckle

If the Model 70 was so perfect, then why isn't it still the most popular and widely available rifle?
They are made in Portugal now and are hard to get; walk into any gun store and if you find one you are lucky. In fact it is now the Least most popular rifle and just last week, someone told me they didn't like the safeties on them. I slapped him silly, which he already was.
Modern shooters and rifle buyers must be stupid. Neither the Army, nor the Marines use them, and they are shooting at people who shoot back.
I only have 8 of them left.

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Originally posted by gasgunner:

As a target shooter, all those strings of rapid fire trained you well. But after the fifth shot did you reach for a stripper clip?

John

If I had been sitting or lying down, I probably would have, but there is no rapid fire standing phase of the National Match course. On the other hand, my interest in International Skeet probably helped me out with the running shots.

I didn't know it at the time, but hunting dogs regurgitate food for their young. One of the ones I killed threw up what looked like a stomach full of unchewed meat, so I guess I robbed some pups of their nourishment.

Incidentally, the game fence was only partially successful. Earlier in the day we had come across a spot in the fence with wool clinging to the barbed wire at the top. Closer investigation revealed that a leopard had climbed the fence, killed a full grown sheep, climbed back over the fence, carrying the sheep and hung it up in a tree, where the trackers located it. The sheep probably weighted as much as the leopard.

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As a target shooter, all those strings of rapid fire trained you well. But after the fifth shot did you reach for a stripper clip?

My two scout rifles have clip slots.

I have clips.

Never found the need to use them hunting.

All pre-War Model 70's have clip slots (except Magnums). However I have never encountered a clip which would accomodate a Magnum case head.

I love the 300 H&H, its my favorite open country rifle. I also am ranch raised in Texas, in the Big Bend country and perfect for the 300 H&H, but in So. Texas and all the rest except the Panhandle in general, and I liked to get the wind in my face and spot and stalk, and play the skill game, I always preferred the 25-35, 30-30 or the 250-3000 with irons. Added the difficulty factor to the stalk...I see the 300 H&H as suitable for driving around and hunting the Senderos for the long shots...but then I never got discouraged over missing a hog or Javalina, and i sure missed a few..In fact most of the big trophy hogs, Javalina, and deer I killed was an accident or luck..

Of the choices in caliber you mention, any of them will work, but I by far would prefer the 300 H&H, and not opposed to a number of other calibers like the 7x57 or 30-06..

I enjoy the .300 mags and always have had one or two of them around. Having a new 300 H&H being built now and also have a custom 300 Wea. Having lived in Texas for a while I found my ultimate hog rifle to be a Pre 64 Model 70 .270 Winchester stocked to fit me by Pete Grisel. Factory 24” barrel shooting Nosler 130 grain Ballistic Tips a 1” gun. I was able to do easy follow up shots taking 3 sometimes 4 out of a group of hogs without thinking about recoil.Having 5 rounds in the magazine was a advantage. Simple Schmidt Bender 6X42 was good for dusk shots. The 130 grain Ballistic Tips nailed the biggest hogs in place. Sold the rifle in a weak moment, having another pretty similar being built now.

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Originally posted by xausa:
All pre-War Model 70's have clip slots (except Magnums). However I have never encountered a clip which would accomodate a Magnum case head.

303 Brit clips would. Have to modify the clip slots for them though. - dan

It seems to me a combat rifle with a 20 shot clip in a .308 would be ideal and fit the poster, hogs have never seemed hard to kill and Ive killed them with 22 magnum, a 5 MM to a 375 or 9.3...Id say the .308 is a great hog gun..

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
It seems to me a combat rifle with a 20 shot clip in a .308 would be ideal and fit the poster, hogs have never seemed hard to kill and Ive killed them with 22 magnum, a 5 MM to a 375 or 9.3...Id say the .308 is a great hog gun..

Agree with Ray and if not wanting to use a semi auto, then why not the best battle rifle ever made, the 303 SMLE. The 150gr bullet at around 2700fps is perfect for hogs, ten shot clip magazines and also can charge the magazine from commonly available clip. The cock on closing SMLE action has proven to be one of the fastest bolt actions available. You won't ever break the stock on an SMLE as it has a massive through bolt holding the butt stock on, any hog coming in close could be beaten to death with the stock without harm (to the stock that is) as many a German and Jap found out. Could even throw a bayonet on to deflect those charging hogs.

300H&H bolt action for mob shooting hogs, really!!!!!
Do it the Kiwi way with dogs to hold, flip them over and stick a knife in through the ribs, that's how real men hunt hogs, up close and personal

On my M98 in .300 H&H I had the clipguide milled out so the magnumbelt could slide straight down.

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
It seems to me a combat rifle with a 20 shot clip in a .308 would be ideal and fit the poster, hogs have never seemed hard to kill and Ive killed them with 22 magnum, a 5 MM to a 375 or 9.3...Id say the .308 is a great hog gun..

There is a great variability to how easy pigs go down in my experience. I think though, that they are much the same as other animals. The first shot can be from any round, and they will die easily. Once they are spooked, it becomes about dropping blood pressure as rapidly as possible. Meaning a large volume hole to drain blood. I’ve had pigs die with their noses literally touching my boot. In that case, it was with 5.56 fmj ammo shooting a boar that two dogs had bayed up. The sixth hit is the one that dropped him at my feet.

This holds for rounds put on animals subsequent to the first one killed. They are spooked and adrenaline will make them much harder to kill.

I’ve caught plenty by hand with dogs. After catching them by hand I’ve killed plenty with pocket knives and even one with a pair of fencing pliers to the head. The real sport isn’t in killing them when you catch them, it’s castrating them then turning them loose. They aren’t typically happy at that point.

I see it as a lot of trouble over a feral hog pest..Id rather hunt Javalina with a 22 LR. HP. or my 25-35..whatever..

Well Mr. Atkinson, I think a lot of your opinion on most topics and respect your knowledge, but I fundamentally disagree with you here. I can only start to explain what this type of hunting means to me to you by asking this question.

Do you hunt for the enjoyment of the act or for the set of horns you put on the wall?

I enjoy the act and the challenge. Learning to handle a rifle in a variety of situations, facing the challenge of stealthy movement while reading the wind and managing cover,and learning to read the movements and patterns of the quarry and other animals that may bust a stalk.

Wild hogs are a wily foe and best of all, I can hunt them all the year round as opposed to white tails. I don’t have to travel but out my back door and I can walk for miles to conduct a hunt on the ranch.

So is it a lot of trouble and expense to come up with a rifle for this purpose? Yes, I will agree with you that it is. However, I like love nice rifles and I love being outside and challenging myself against my prey. I do thermal hunts with AR’s on occasion as well, but I much prefer doing it how I’ve described which is most analogous to an African Safari type hunt.

An example of how my hunts typically go. Yesterday I closed the office a little early and decided to go get on a deer stand for an evening hunt. I got to the stand about 3:30. As I was easing up to the stand, I realized there were about twenty pigs in the food plot I was going to hunt over, but they were in the back corner. So instead of getting up in the stand, I slipped around the edge of the woods the food plot cuts into.

I slipped up behind a brush pile to get as close as I could given the conditions. I stepped out behind the brush pile and took a seat settling the rifle in my hands with my elbows resting to the sides of my knees. Shot and dropped the first pig, the rest began running dead away. Shot a second with tail on shot (missed one until after the second shot that would have been a nice broadside, didn’t notice he broke from the rest) that must have cut through the hams by the way it kept running but how much it was bleeding.

This food plot backs up into about a square mile of woods where three creeks come together. The woods are a mixture of open hardwood bottom, planted pine, and swampy wetlands. Rather than get on the stand, I tracked this group of pigs into the swamp. I followed them down to the largest of the three creeks.

I decided to break off the track when they hit the big creek rather than wade it, but turned and followed the creek down to where the three join together. I moved slowly stopping every once in a while to glass the transitions from one type of environment to the next. Didn’t see much in the woods. A front was blowing in yesterday and it was hot. Not much was moving.

However, walking down creek, I was wishing I had a drilling. I jumped up 30 ducks as I traveled along the creek in different holes. I eventually got to a tree across a second creek I had turned to follow that was meandering me back towards the truck. I went out into a large bottom that is opened into a pasture but bordered by two of the 3 creeks mentioned above. Didn’t see any pigs in this field, but kept moving along the creek watching a few doe that would cut across every once in a while. It was starting to get late and dark at this point.

Made my way down to a low water creek crossing. As I walked up to it I spotted a ten point buck bedded down on the side of a hill. He was looking in my direction trying to see what I was. He was in the way of the path I intended to take so I eased off in the woods again to keep from bumping him off.

After slipping around him, I got back on a road towards my truck. It was nearly dark at this time. I had a boar hog cut across my path in front of me in some scattered trees. We spotted each other at about the same moment. Threw my 30-06 Husqvarna Mauser up, put the Leica magnus on him. The circle plex reticle zeroed me in on him as he rand. I followed him tree to tree until the shot presented itself. Then I let a 208 gr ELD M drop the 150# boar.

I walked on back to my truck and made it back to it at about 6. I had spent 2.5 hours wandering the woods and felt much lighter after spending my time focused on nature and pondering solutions to my troubles.

KK,
I bow to your post, and apoligise for my rudeness based mostly on my distaste for feral hogs and the damage they do..You have made a sporting challange out of it and that I have to respect..

Certainly no need to apologize. I have a difficult time explaining what it is I do since it seems to be rather unique. Most don’t get it until they come out and try it with me.

Ive always liked to hunt Javalina, mostly on our Big Bend country in Texas, and any caliber from the 22 LR to whatevers handy..smart, fast, just fun..

Never gave much thought to feral hogs as a game animal, shot them mostly from a deer stand as a target of opertunity while hunting deer..on my sisters ranch in East Texas..She had lots of feral hogs..

I respect the way you have made sport out of hunting the ferals..