I bought a custom 300 RUM from John in 2017 to use while hunting goats.

The rifle is a tack driver and John has given me the best of service. John is in Idaho.

Call him up.

A new rifle is fun.

But 11 posts in 11 years is a little slow.

John is a heck of an artist and craftsman. Also a heck of a nice guy.

How about some pictures to prove it??

Not to start another fight, or to question those that are " in the biz" but how much work does he actually do on his rifles ? I have gunsmith friend's that have done work for me that have made complete barrelled actions for him and another that did all of the inletting (and a large majority of the external shaping) of a particularly expensive SCI auctioned rifle. Seems to me that if someone is putting their name on a rifle that they should have done all or a majority of the work.

Seems to me that if someone is going to make accusations like that they should include verifiable facts to back it up.

quote:

Originally posted by robert lerner:
Not to start another fight, or to question those that are " in the biz" but how much work does he actually do on his rifles ? I have gunsmith friend's that have done work for me that have made complete barrelled actions for him and another that did all of the inletting (and a large majority of the external shaping) of a particularly expensive SCI auctioned rifle. Seems to me that if someone is putting their name on a rifle that they should have done all or a majority of the work.

Spot on..not an industry first either

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by robert lerner:
Not to start another fight, or to question those that are " in the biz" but how much work does he actually do on his rifles ? I have gunsmith friend's that have done work for me that have made complete barrelled actions for him and another that did all of the inletting (and a large majority of the external shaping) of a particularly expensive SCI auctioned rifle. Seems to me that if someone is putting their name on a rifle that they should have done all or a majority of the work.

Spot on..not an industry first either

Many English makers do not make all or a large portion of the guns they sell. W. J. Jeffery, for instance, did not make his rifles. Common practice for many traditional makers. In the USA a lot of piece work is farmed out... who makes their own barrels, actions, bottom metal, etc? Not many for sure.

How much can one expect for $12,000 to $35,000 :-)

I know it's not written in concrete, but the totally up front maker will show "Clyde Suckfinger, GunmakerS"... Note the plural. If singular, the owner should expect that mean one builder's work. Then there's totally acceptable builds showing two, maybe three artisans

Oh boy, this will be my last comment on this. But let me defend my post. I'd agree that many quality gunmakers farm out certain parts /aspects of their final products, and the final result is outstanding. Even the best gunmakers on this forum (hopefully Duane & D'arcy ) don't mind me using them as named examples ,use actions & barrels from others. BUT the assembly of those parts and certainly the stockmaking aspects are done by them largely or entirely. That IMO constitutes a gun built by them and is justification for putting your name on it. But farming out entire barrelled actions to one maker, stockmaking to another etc and then calling it your own... well ,I guess that's up to the consumer to decide. To respond to Lindy specifically, I will not name the aforementioned gunsmiths that worked on guns later named Bolligers because I would never throw them under the bus and create problems for them, they didn't choose to bring this up, I did, and I trust them at their word and that's enough for me to feel confident to raise this issue. That said, i've handled Bolliger rifles and they are beautiful and i'm sure function fantastically. But if i'm investing the kind of $ they command, i'm getting one built by the man who's name is on the gun. That is part of what you're paying for. Peace out.

Then perhaps one should look at Bolliger (Mountain Riflery LLC) as one looks at Griffin & Howe and Tiffany & Co.

I believe that Empire Rifles used a similar strategy.

I posted on this blog, decided I knew too much on some of our locals, so decided to decline!

He sure did. I wonder if that contributed to his downfall.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I believe that Empire Rifles used a similar strategy.

I think we're getting a bit deep in the weeds and need to lighten up a little.

There's a good chance we all have knelt down on bended knee to pay homage to an original Rigby Rifle made for Big Game and muttered "man did they know how to build them back then" ? I know I have and still do on occasion all the while overlooking the fact that the barreled actions were shipped to Briton after being conceived at the Oberndorf plant. How many Rigby's have you seen the barrel engraved with "Stocked and assembled in England By Rigby with all metalwork produced in Germany" Not to many I'd wager. Hmmm !

Speaking for myself I am at best a stock maker that had to get into metal work out of sheer desperation if he wanted to remain in business. I have stocked more than a few Tom Burgess barreled actions, a number of Jasper Rabourn's jewels and have always had their names proudly engraved next to my name as a co-contributor and participant.

Sadly I can not weld anything, zero, nada , zip nor could Tom Burgess in my opinion so I have other professionals such as Steve Heilmann do that for me as he is a fantastic micro welder and for me this represents money well spent towards the final project.

Greg Tannel, Mark Penrod and Gene Simillion have all re-cut action threads for me for quite some time. Mark has made a number of specialized parts and quarter rib blanks for me that I then fit to each barrel when required. All their work is top notch and again well worth the money and effort required for the clients desired end results.

Bluing, I have done more than my fare share of rust bluing and still do when required. But due to municipal restrictions I can not set up caustic tanks or I would have done it in a heartbeat years ago. So I sub out that work to Glenrock Blue, I do all the polish work and they handle the caustic bluing procedure in a most professional way. Once again money well spent.

Fiberglass stocks, I've made 3 patterns as I didn't like those that were available and then had McMillan make me three molds. Somebody had to make those patterns, I'll leave the lay-up and machining to McMillan as I don't need to, I have better ways to use what little talent I have.

Painting fiberglass stocks, I've been there and done it but have gotten better results from those that do this everyday. Again thinking of the end results
Jeff you're outstanding !!!!!!!!!

Parts ? Remember "sheer desperation" Like many I have had to rely heavily on parts of my own design. In the mid 80's I was very fortunate to have worked with Schneidmiller Industries to accomplish many of these pioneering goals. I use to have to make the original working prototypes but now have come to rely on a competent engineer and Solid-Works to design what I have envisioned. Then these parts are made within the same incredible machine shop, Central Vally Machine. Without their expertise I'd be even more Glacial in production, compromising the end game with half baked parts and very likely burnt out by now.

I myself have cut a forest and a half of stock blanks for other makers as a sub-contractor and never felt slighted in the least for a lack of a mention. Come on really ?

I can think of very few actual 100% capable Gun or Rifle Makers. Joe Smithson, Dewey Vicknair, Stuart Slaterlee, Stephen Alexander, Martin Hagn and Max Ern come to mind as to those craftsmen that can build a "gun" from a solid block of steel and then wrap a beautifully made stock around it and do the complete task better than most. These guys are rare, forgive me if I've forgotten to include you in this short list.

Speaking again for myself only, I can't, nor do I want to make every single part or preform every single operation on every given project. I sugguest you do what you do best and get done what you require from the best.

Skilled sub-contractors can only benefit you, its finding them at times that's hard.

Regardless of those involved I am still ultimately in charge of the final project so my name goes on the barrel, at least the owner will know who to call when the floor plate or recoil pad falls off.

In the case of companies like Empire unfortunately the CEO didn't know sheep shit from cotton seed about as to what was required to actually build a quality firearm. Now that is a skill set that very few have yet to master.

I raise my frosted G&T glass to those un-sung heroes who's name never showed up on the barrel.

I believe it's an important distinction you're making between a gun builder who subs out some work as apposed to a salesman who subs out all of the work and slaps their name on it (e.g., Empire Rifles).
For the record, I also sub out hot bluing as well as engraving. Usually the engravers name goes on the work unless it's simple touches.