I'm primarily a shotgunner and I go back and forth about proper fit. I am curious how one determines the "proper" length of pull for a rifle and specifically how much LOP is too much?

Thanks

Good question. I don't think that anyone can answer it with a hard and fast rule. I certainly can't.

I think proper LOP is a function of making the stock of a specific kind of rifle or gun fit the unique build of the shooter.

We all have our own neck and arm lengths, face size and shape, size and bulk of torso, etc. I've heard that there's an "Average Joe" that gunmakers design their mass-produced firearms to fit, but I've never met him!

I think it's a pretty well universal rule that different kinds of rifles and guns (e.g., singles, doubles, bolt actions, lever actions, etc.) require different LOPs for even the same shooter. At least it's true for me.

For me, in most bolt action rifles, I want 14 to 14¼ inches of pull. And I want the LOP to be on the longer side on a big bore rifle. How did I figure that out? Mostly by trial and error.

I like the same LOP on most semi-auto shotguns.

I have been properly "fitted" by an expert for an O/U double shotgun. We figured out that, for most O/U double shotguns, I want around 14⅞ or 15 inches of pull.

In most SxS double rifles, I like about 14½ or 14¾ inches.

Cast off and proper drop at comb and heel are also very important. All of these things, if handled correctly, will make a rifle or gun come alive, and mount and point almost with a will of its own. They will also help the shooter better deal with recoil and get off faster repeat shots.

Now, even having said all of that, it seems to me that we humans are pretty flexible creatures. In my case, as long as the thumb of my shooting hand is far enough forward of my nose, I can adapt to just about any LOP within reason!

Still, it's not fun or easy to have to crane your neck, or pull back your head, or otherwise wrestle yourself, your rifle or your gun into an awkward position because of an ill-fitting stock.

As for how much LOP is too much? I've found that it's impossible to get comfortable behind a rifle or gun when the buttstock is too long. I can't get my head and face forward and "down" on the stock enough to line up a shot. It's very uncomfortable.

Mostly I remember this from when I was a kid, and every LOP was too long!

There is a way to measure LOP- it is a common method.The type of recoil pad needs considering too.Then there is the grip.The thickness of the grip and the slope is very important.The forearm also needs consideration.There is also the drop on the rear of the stock.How much drop depends on various factors-cartridge,open-sights etc...A well trained gunmaker should know these things.Don't confuse shotguns with rifles and small bores with medium bores and big bores-they are entirely different.

Back in 1982, when in my 20's, I had my first custom rifle made. The 'smith handed me a rifle, WITHOUT a scope mounted, my eyes closed and had me mount it. He immediately claimed I needed a 14" LOP. I never thought much about it until I had my daughter take this pic a few years back.





When looking at it, I realized it was not the scope mounting distance to my eye that determined the LOP but my nose to thumb knuckle that did. In this pic I'm looking through the scope and thus adjusting my face to the scope and not the stock. The rifle is a very light 30-06 AI that weighs just under 7-1/2 lbs as you see it here. It's got some punch to say the least and I learned to not wrap my thumb around the stock 'cause it usually bopped me in the nose if I didn't.

We as Americans usually adjust our shooting style to the scope instead of adjusting the rifle and/or scope to us.

Alan

GSSP,that is exactly the same issue I have with my CZ 458WM and CZ 458 lott.I don't have a scope on it and get my thumb hitting my nose every time.From what I gathered the grip and stock is too thick and is to verticle or in other words has too little a slope-it should sweep back more.Your LOP looks fine in that photo.If your LOP was too short you would have too much slack between your trigger finger and the trigger and if it was too long you would be reaching or stretching your finger too far for the trigger.

[URL= ]measured LOP[/URL] I actually sent this picture to Ralph Martini.

Just had my 12 yr old son take these pics for comparison about 20 min ago.

Same rifle built in 1982 for my specs; 14" LOP.




My prized Glen Morovitz Pre 64 M70 257 Rob I obtained last year; 13-5/8" LOP which as I understand is termed "standard" in the USA.
Obviously too short but i'm not worried about it's recoil bopping something precious.



See how the nose and thumb make contact when I hold the 257 Rob? With a heavy hitter, that would hurt.

Also, look at the base of my thumb and the relationship to my cheek.

Alan

That rifle stock was designed wrong,IMO.One way I can tell if my rifle stock is designed right is by lifting my thumb on the grip so that it points toward the safety or bolt shroud.If it can touch the shroud or is very close to it it is all wrong.There should be space between the thumb and the shroud,when the thumb is extended.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
That rifle stock was designed wrong,IMO.One way I can tell if my rifle stock is designed right is by lifting my thumb on the grip so that it points toward the safety or bolt shroud.If it can touch the shroud or is very close to it it is all wrong.There should be space between the thumb and the shroud,when the thumb is extended.

Which stock?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
One way I can tell if my rifle stock is designed right is by lifting my thumb on the grip so that it points toward the safety or bolt shroud.If it can touch the shroud or is very close to it it is all wrong.There should be space between the thumb and the shroud,when the thumb is extended.

Like this?



What if someone has longer or shorter than normal thumbs?

Alan

I checked things out with my Ruger after looking at your last picture and your rifle seems OK-it seems to fit you right.Perhaps the issue I am having with my CZ is caused by the very soft recoil pad that may be shortening my LOP considerably during recoil.How is your recoil pad?

It's a 5 yr old Decelerator. Still soft; somewhat. You should have seen the previous pad; 25 yr old and HARD. OUCH!

Alan

I would go with a thick and somewhat firm pad like the silvers.I think the soft pad may be causing both of our issues.

Thank you for the dialogue, gentlemen. This is exactly what I wanted to see discussed.

I ask the question because I have a 1963 M70 in 06 that is pretty much my go-to rifle. Love the gun EXCEPT for that crappy plastic buttplate. To me, it just cheapens the look of the rifle. I'm thinking of adding an original Winchester red rubber pad but I don't want to cut the stock. So, I'm really just wondering how the extra 1/2" of rubber will effect the shootability if the rifle. Based on the pictures and discussion so far, I think the rifle fits me pretty well as is.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would go with a thick and somewhat firm pad like the silvers.I think the soft pad may be causing both of our issues.

Uh, I wasn't aware I had an issue

Alan

Thinking it over again,a thick stock may also be causing the thumb or hand to hit the nose or face under recoil.Ralph Martini brought this to my attention.It seems to me that some stocks are being made way too thick.The camo stock pictured above without the scope looks kind of thick.Looking at some pictures of vintage rifles,I get the impression they where built slimmer back then-maybe for this reason.

I actually have 2 LOPs for my rifles. The rifles I use here in Texas are 3/4" longer LOP than the custom rifles I use when I travel abroad. The reason is that in Texas you can find yourself hunting in a T shirt, whereas the rifles I had built for the colder climates takes heavy clothing into account.

The conventional wisdom that better a rifle stock too short, a shotgun stock too long, is pretty good, IMO.

I'm fitted with a 15 1/4" LOP on a double trigger, straight grip shotgun, 14 1/4 to 3/8" on a single trigger pistol grip shotgun stock. I have a 34" sleeve. On a rifle, anything over 13 1/2" feels too long, and I'm just fine with 13 1/4". I used to feel OK with longer DG rifles, but anymore, prefer them same as the others.

We "Brits" viewed rifle fit as so important that in the old Lee Enfield there were THREE lengths of issue stock available.

Short - marked S, Normal - not marked and Long - marked L. In WWI when underheight men were allowed to enlist there were even stocks for those! Bantam marked B.

As far as a bespoke or custom stock goes then, yes, as others note a custom fitted rifle stock will usually be shorter than your custom fitted shot gun stock. It will also a different "drop" than your shot gun stock.

Why? Point of Impact! For with a shot gun it is fitted to put 60% of the shot charge above point of aim (more so in a trap gun) but a rifle is designed to put the shot group EXACTLY 50% above and 50% below the point of aim.

Some years ago I heard a lecture from some self regarded expert talking about one of the old "great shots". This expert deduced that from the man's rifle fitting he must have been very short with an abnormal neck.

I made no mention at the time. But after the lecture asked our host never to invite him to speak again as clearly the man knew nothing!

For in one of the books of that old "great man" (John Henry Walsh aka "Stonehenge") the old "great man" himself had advised by how much shorter and how much different in drop the rifle stock should be.

Which if you then added back that difference to his rifle stock measurement gave a shot gun stock of entirely common dimensions for a man of the normal height and physical build range for men of that era.

So Walsh was neither short nor abnormally necked!