I keep hearing these terms and just got to wondering.

It's a series of metal work practices that make a rifle shoot better..I suppose it has some advantage from a bench rest standpoint, and perhaps from a varmint hunters standpoint, but it has been beat to death IMO and its costly. I have seen a lot of guns that shot fantastically without so called "blue printing", and I have seen nothing more than "proper installion" called blue printing, and costs added. An example is squareing off the fact of an action so the barrel isn't installed crooked, some actions need it and some don't, some are square from the factory..I have seen many old Sakos that were square to the world for instance..thats just one practice. IMO do it if its needed, don't just do it.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with Ray. Good for bench rest, long range shooting.

Fact is, with today's factory guns, like Remington and Tika, you will run out of "hunter" before you run out of "gun" when it comes to range and accuracy.

I had a new Douglas barrel installed on a 1916 GEW98 action and replaced the bolt with an FN commercial bolt. No lapping lugs, truing, etc. Right ammo, shoots .25-.5 MOA.

I thought I might be the only one who felt this way. Although I only build rifles for myself and accept the fact that I couldn't carry most builders lunch box, I've found that I only do all that work if needed also. The rifles I've built shoot a lot more accurately than than I can shoot.
Gary

And then I have some rifles that will shoot all ammo/bullets well; and some guns that will only shoot one type and weight of bullet and powder well.

There is still witches brew in our work. Now, the truing, blueprinting, hand lapped, case work, etc help reduce/minimize this.

So I'd say a really tuned barreled action would tend to shoot better/wide range of ammo/bullets that one that is not.

The Mauser referred to above, would only shoot Accubonds well. Some premium bullets wouldn't group better than 6"!!!!

My position is this: if you're going to the expense of building a custom rifle, why not spend the time & money to ensure that it's done right?

One thing about it is you only have to do it once then you have a platform to work with. Next re-barrel is a snap. Why not do it? Most are very picky with their hand loads. Kinda up the same alley.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
My position is this: if you're going to the expense of building a custom rifle, why not spend the time & money to ensure that it's done right?

I agree. It doesn't hurt any. And while it may or may not be be necessary to varying degrees, depending upon what you start off with and while the gain may not necessarily be
overwheling...................it's the 90% between the ears that counts...............

quote:

What is meant by a 'Blue-printed action' and a 'Trued action'?

Truing an action, is part and parcel of precision metal smithing.
Its usually done to compliment ultra precision custom scope mounts and precise inletting of the wood.

To me just grinding the top ring surface of a mauser or pre64, is not enough for a really top flight rig.
I want all receiver surfaces properly true/square to each other.
If I owned Ferrari, i would be very disappointed if only only some of the body panels aligned properly.

quote:

What is meant by a 'Blue-printed action' and a 'Trued action'?

Truing an action, is part and parcel of precision metal smithing.
'Full house' truing is usually done to compliment such things as:
premium high grade bottom metal,ultra precise custom scope mount systems and precise inletting of the wood.

To me just just facing off and grinding the top ring surface of a mauser or pre64, is not enough for a really top flight rig.
I want all receiver surfaces made properly true/concentric/square to each other.
If I owned a new Ferrari,or high level modern retro custom classic car,
I would be very disappointed if only only some of the body panels aligned properly.

Blue printing of actions is intended to make the functions features such as bolt guide surfaces, bolt face, receiver threads, locking shoulders, locking lugs, and receiver face square or on axis to each other. The emphasis is on functional features and has nothing to do with cosmetics.

Many of the actions used for custom rifles are difficult to correctly and completely blue print since the receiver may not be straight.
In addition many gunsmiths are not tooled and do not have the ability to correct all features on every action available.

The most often blue printed action is the M700 Remington. The M700 is easy to blue print since it is made out of tubing. However even the M700 receivers are known to be crooked due to heat treating after machining. Remington addressed that on 40X-BR receivers by heat treating before machining.

In the distant past a custom rifle implied a "trued/blueprinted" action and barrel...not necessarily implied any more.

"Blueprint" comes from the race engine building process I think.

I was taught "truing" is what you do to a rifle/pistol/shotgun to improve it's shooting characteristics. Concepts and words are ever changing.

Basically it is making all the various pieces and parts "Square, parallel and perpendicular from the receiver bore, to the bolt, bolt face, threads, lugs and lug abutments and barrel bore...including the scope mounts, rings and screw holes, top of the receiver and front sight mounting holes.

It isn't all that hard to do if I don't have any trouble squaring up a receiver/barrel.

Brownells and some gunsmiths have all the tooling for the "tubular' receivers and also mausers and anyone with a lathe and a mill can make just about all the required tooling.

This isn't meant to take anything away from a real gunsmith as experience teaches those "secret" methods that ONLY experience with building many rifles on many different receivers teaches.

One thing about truing and blueprinting as a "myth". I had one "gunsmith" do a rechamber on a Ruger M77 once and it came back with the barrel installed pointing almost 1/4" right and ~1/8" down...you could see it by looking down the barrel but it wasn't all that apparent just by looking at the rifle. I wasn't about to send it back to him as it took almost 8 months and two trips from L.V Nev. to Elko.

It took up all the adjustment in the windage to get it within 2" of center but after I got a load worked up it would do 1/2" all day long...and shot OK as long as I took that offset into consideration. It was a .243 W but I wanted something hotter so I went with 6mm-284. I burned that barrel out in no time and pulled it off. I don't know what he did to it other than cut the threads too small...maybe that caused the barrel to pull off center. A soon as I broke it loose, it flopped around like a broke necked goose.

I did another 6mm-284 barrel, put the receiver on a mandrel on centers and dialed everything in and other than a rough receiver face where the barrel locked on, everything was square including the threads.

Truing is only needed in high accuracy shooting situations...for hunting...well, you pick your required level...although I prefer ALL my rifles to be at least 1/2 inchers...that way when I miss I can't blame the rifle or ammo...I KNOW who mucked up.

...

I believe that it has a purpose, but I also think it has been misused to one degree or another to make more money on a custom rifle by some...

I trust Paul Mauser about as much as anyone out yonder..I have no "blue printed rifles", but every rifle I own will shoot an inch or under at 100 yards for 3 shots..For a hunting rifle that is more than satisfactory. My two varmint rifles shoot so well its scary and they were not in the since "blueprinted", just put together right with the best components.

As opposed to the term "blue printing", when I have metal work down, I want a break down of what ii intended and how much it costs..Example:
I like to have my rifles surface ground for sure (but don't consider it a must)...I like to have the face machined so the barrel is installed properly (some call this blue printing)

In other words lets discuss whats to be done when you order a rifle, then make the decision. I prefer to nix the word "blue printing" as it is just too vague to satisfy me, but I only speak for myself..

Thanks Duane, Would you by chance have a phone number for Black Duck Publications? Seems to be a low printing and unavailable in the usual places.

Duanne,

Bill's description of truing an action is the most complete I've ever read. He provides the reasoning for it as well.

His description of barrell fitting and bedding is also great...........along with scope fitting, making reloading dies, barrel tuners, reloading...........etc.

Bill's book, both editions, were very limited runs of 100 copies........I am hoping that if there is enough interest he'll do another edition.

We can't let this information die with him. He dispells alot of the "witchcraft" in precision gunmaking and puts it "out there" for anyone interested enough to read it.

Bill's approach is fanatical in it's detail to everything he does and it certainly sets a measure of what aspiring gun builders should be aiming for.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
.. a book written by Wm Hambly Clark Jr. in Australia.

Bill Jr. gave up custom rifle smithing a good number of yrs ago, to get a job as a prison officer,
since the pay was better...

quote:

Originally posted by twobobbwana:
Duanne,

Bill's description of truing an action is the most complete I've ever read. He provides the reasoning for it as well.

His description of barrell fitting and bedding is also great...........along with scope fitting, making reloading dies, barrel tuners, reloading...........etc.

Bill's book, both editions, were very limited runs of 100 copies........I am hoping that if there is enough interest he'll do another edition.

We can't let this information die with him. He dispells alot of the "witchcraft" in precision gunmaking and puts it "out there" for anyone interested enough to read it.

Bill's approach is fanatical in it's detail to everything he does and it certainly sets a measure of what aspiring gun builders should be aiming for.

How about an ebook? The cost of putting one out is dramatically less.

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I do not : try blackduckpublishing@bigpond.com,

quote:

I had a new Douglas barrel installed on a 1916 GEW98 action and replaced the bolt with an FN commercial bolt. No lapping lugs, truing, etc. Right ammo, shoots .25-.5 MOA.

My opinion only, you may want to rethink that accuracy.

"Blue Prints" were accurate copies of the original designs for an action, engine and their individual parts

In any manufacturing process there will be differences between the finished parts and what is actually shown on the blue print. Blue printing simply means building the action or engine to the optimal specs as shown on the blue print - on the underlying assumption that the blueprint gives the optimum dimensions for producing best accuracy, max power etc. in practice this means hand fitting to give best mating of the various parts. Modern machine tools do now give much more accurately produced parts - cf modern car engine as opposed to one from even 20 years ago.

For more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueprint

If anyone is interested in adding to their library by obtaining a copy of the aforementioned book, Bill needs 50 pre-orders to proceed with a third printing. The first 2 issues are sold out. Inquiries can be emailed directly to Bill at blackduckpublishing@bigpond.com

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Fotr the guy that really want's to study the process, I think the last word is a book written by Wm Hambly Clark Jr. in Australia.

Titled "Centerfire rifle accfuracy" available from Black Duck Publications POB 146 Barcaldine Queenslasnd 4725 Australia.

About 450 pages of really technical stuff. written with a sense of humor

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

I had a new Douglas barrel installed on a 1916 GEW98 action and replaced the bolt with an FN commercial bolt. No lapping lugs, truing, etc. Right ammo, shoots .25-.5 MOA.

My opinion only, you may want to rethink that accuracy.

Well this is the internet................could be worse just go to a golf forum.......

With all the definitions offered I am surprised that I haven't seen the work "tolerance" used...

It's really just redoing all the machining work already done at the factory, but taking the time to perform the work to closer tolerances.

Blueprinting an action will only help it if it's screwed up to begin with. If you start with a good action there is very little you can do to improve it.

I pretty much agree with that. How many gunsmiths have a blueprint handy to be able to blueprint one?? As stated, it would be very hard to make noticeable improvements on a receiver by remachining. Any shooting improvement would be between your ears.

I'm not going to beat this dog to death but if you were not aware not all actions are made equally and not all action correcting procedures are all that well thought out. Nor is the method to determine potential problems and then preform the corrective procedures all that effective. I have some experience with the Model 70 and the 98. As I assemble more Mod 70's I will address these. It is not to uncommon to find the receiver threads machined out of line with the centerline of the bore and pointing off into deep space particularly on the revised production claw extractor Model 70. On the few left handed Model 70 actions I have assembled this situation should be considered a given. If the amount of run out is minimal and you install a scope with maximum amount of windage and elevation correction available or install iron sights only on the barrel you will likely never perceive this as a problem. If the run-out is significant you will run out of windage correction unless you use the older style Redfield or Leupold windage screw bases. If you install a peep on the rear bridge you may find the windage correction to zero the rifle will require the windage slide to hang way over the sight base to left of right of the center line of the base to allow you to zero the rifles point of impact. Do a search on this site to see how many have run into this issue along with the scope base screw holes being off center ?

Most of the Model 70 receiver faces have .001 to .002 perpendicularity run-out to the centerline of the bore, some as much as .004, this is very common with the late Pre-64's. I have corrected a few with over .005. If the run out is in the 12 to 6 O-Clock position it may never be detected at the target. But with run-out run out in the 3 to 9 O-Clock position coupled with a miss aligned threads who knows where the muzzle will be pointing at 100 yards.

Bolt face run-out is normal on the Model 70 with as little as .0005 to as much as .005 being high centered somewhere on the circumference of the bolt face. The rear contact surface of the re-coil lugs and the lug seats inside the action as well can vary in height, can be cut on a helix or both. The "stack up" factor can be amazing. I am convinced that my shop has received more than its share of actions made on the afternoon before a major holiday and allowed to pass through QC anyway.

Is "blue printing" worth the extra trouble and expense ? It seems to me that it can certainly be as important as the selection of either a quarter sawn verse slab sawed blank for the project. Carbon Fiber verse fiberglass, 5 R geometry verse polygon, button verse cut rifling, skeleton butt plate verse recoil pad, or adding .020 worth of incline I the scope bases for long range work . Most seem to apply more thought to the choice of optics than the mechanical aspect of looking into and correcting any of these potential accuracy effecting issues.

I can say that I feel it is a necessity on any NEW project that I do. If you have an older rifle, one with great classic stock and flawless inletting or even well done free floated barrel this could be a huge mistake if you planned to re-barrel it and true up the face of the receiver and re-cut the treads in an attempt to leave no stone unturned. As the original configuration of the receiver face and thread form direction has predetermined the position that the original barrel is pointing. If you make major corrections,.004 lateral correction is major, at this stage of the game your new barrel may not even go back in the original barrel channel. Trust me, I know all to well what can of worms you can open up.

To say the procedure of "all blue Printing" is useless seems is a bit misguided based on my experience and what I have seen from one Model 70 to the next over the years. If the final goal is to guarantee "1/2" groups with factory ammo" then I would consider blue printing a Model 70 a must-do standard OP procedure in the construction plans or you're going to be shooting a lot of factory ammo to come up with one of those 1/2" groups to finally slip in the box as you get ready to ship the rifle.

This is of course just one guys opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:

Is "blue printing" worth the extra trouble and expense ? It seems to me that it can certainly be as important as the selection of either a quarter sawn verse slab sawed blank for the project.

Believe it or not, there are people out there that willingly spend several hundreds more on walnut simply for better aesthetics,
and willingly pay more for the better quality/precision[?] cut barrel, [and sometimes a mountain more $$ for meticulously executed integral features]
and willingly pay for thousands of dollars in meticulous stock work,
...yet may pass or baulk at the lesser cost of having the receiver set up in a mandrel - to have the tenon thread re-cut in an accurate thread form on proper concentric axis.

And your point is?

My point?...thats simple,

Precision mechanics in metal[in this case precision metalsmithing of the action] is no less important.

Anyway Butch, now that you are here,
maybe you can help with something, on another forum I noticed you say one should avoid welding on the front receiver ring area of a rem700,
yet you had a smith do welding to that area of your 700 clone Pierce action,...why is that?

Because after the lug was tig welded on I had it reheated. Hopefully you read that.

SorrY, I clearly recall reading that you told someone to simply avoid welding the front ring of a rem700,
you made no mention or suggestion to them, that it would be OK to weld if they reheated their rem700 afterwords.

Trax, Mine was actually done on a Pierce CM receiver. I would have no problem if the heat treat or case hardening was redone. I have 2 or 3 Mausers with square bridges welded on, but they were recasehardened.
Sorry if I wasn't clear on my post.

From my perception, if the owner is only interested in having a new barrel installed and the minimal work necessary to assure the chambered ammunition safely function all at the minimalist price point possible the gunsmith performing the work would likely talk until blue in the face and still not obtain approval/receive recompense for the additional work to correct manufacturing inaccuracies of the action.

My personal belief is that it is stupid for the owner paying for a custom built rifle to not pay the additional cost to correct manufacturing inaccuracies of the action during the build. Regardless of the beauty of the completed custom build, only accurate rifles are truly treasured in during the hunt.

Just my comments...

To the extent that there is a measurable improvement in accuracy I would agree.

We're back to why some people buy chevys and some buy porsches.

[QUOTE] How many gunsmiths have a blueprint handy to be able to blueprint one?? As stated, it would be very hard to make noticeable improvements on a receiver by remachining. QUOTE]

Probably none. Good point.
I assumed the modern usage of the term "blue print" had something to do with using Prussian Blue when truing up surfaces with machinery.
Something like smoking parts to fit by hand.