I've just received a box of 15 rounds of ammo with a 185.4 gr. spire-point, boat-tailed, bullet (advertised as 211 gr.) for the 7.65x54 Argentine (aka 7.65x53mm Argentine, aka Belgian). On the box (line by line from the top):

Fabrica Militar - Military Made OR Made for the Military
"San Francisco" - Arsenal? or simply the location of the factory?
15 Cartuchos - 15 Cartridges
Cal 7.65x54 mm COMUN "SS" - Caliber 7.65x54 mm ???
What appears to be MK 2 MOD 0 - the type ammo, but where can I find a description?
LOTE MUN. with what appears to be an inked S - Lot ? S
FULMINANTE NO CORROSIVO - non corrosive but should I believe it?
INDUSTRIA ARGENTINA

The headstamp is SF 80 7.65x54mm.

As much as I've shot 7.65x53 (er, 7.65x54mm) rifles, I've never before come across this ammo although I knew that orginally, the cartridge was loaded with a 215 gr. bullet. Any help will be appreciated.

[ 10-28-2003, 06:04: Message edited by: Hobie ]

SF is the headstamp of {Fabrica Militar de Cartuchos San Francisco},roughly translated means
military cartridges makers.

They are located in San Francisco,Argentina,
which is about 300 miles NW of Buenos Aires,Argentina.

WC

My sources indicate that the 211gr bullet was a roundnose and the early loading for that round. Muzzle velocity is listed @ 2132fps. 185 and 154gr loadings are listed as later military loadings. If the "SF 80" indicates 1980 as the year of mfg that sounds like a later rather than an early loading. I sure wouldn't trust the "no corrosivo" line.

Like Craigster, I consider ALL milsurp ammo to be corrosive, and treat my guns accordingly after using it.

SF ammo is known for poor quality standards, according to what I have read. I have never used it. There are reports of ammo too long to chamber, which of course likely means there is also ammo TOO SHORT TO HEADSPACE properly -- you just won't be able to identify those, since they will probably still go bang. I have one of the Argentine Police / Mauser banner model carbines, but I wouldn't use that ammo in it. I'd recommend getting dies and rolling your own.

Todd

Hobie

I do not know about rifles but I will try to help as much as I can.

1)7,65x53 vs 7,65x54
Some articles mention 53 and Lyman Reloading Book also does, but the ammo currently produced is 54.
Here you have an article talking about 53
http://www.fullaventura.com.ar/municiones/nota102138.asp
(This article shows a 15 cartrige box too but it is ilegible)

This is the web site of the factory which currently produce 7,65x54 for Mausers, sporty is the only current application.
http://www.myaflb.com.ar/default2.html

I will asked rifleman in the club about that

2) This cartrige was used by
Belgian year 1889
Turkey, year 1890
Argentine, year 1891 (211grain round nose point)
Per�
Colombia
Ecuador
Argentine,year 1909 (154grains spitzer point)
(But this new model may shoot the 211 grain round nose, huge quantity of old ammo at this time, you know).

3) FMC SF
It means " Fabrica Militar de Cartuchos San Francisco- Cordoba"
Literally: San Francisco Cartridge Factory , Cordoba
It was a factory, not an arsenal.

San Francisco is the city, Cordoba is the province where the factory was located.

4)COMUN
It could mean Standard

5)LOTE MUN
It could be LOTE MUNICION , which means Production Batch of Ammunition , and the ink could be a Number or a Letter, I don�t now but, it is in ink because this code changes from batch to batch.

6)SF 80
It is San Francisco Factory, produced 1980 year.

I hope what is above makes your week end relaxed, I will try to ask one rifleman in the club or I will go to Fabricaciones Militares Office during the next week to get answers to your questions.
Any doubt you have, do not hesitate to ask me.

BA Shooter

I have some of this ammo that I acquired about 9 years ago. It was cheap and I found out why - the powder was degraded and was eating through the cases! Only good for the bullets now. Hope you have better luck.

Having shot the 7.65x53 for 30+ years, I am pretty familiar with its history and wanted this ammo as an example of the original loading and to perhaps compare velocities with my handloads using 215 gr. bullets. The bullet actually weighs 185.4 gr.

I was somewhat disappointed to find it had a SP shape when I opened the box, but, due to my natural caution and suspicious nature I had only bought the one box instead of taking the "deal" offered. I have been told by another source that these are indeed non-corrosive primers. However, I don't think that I'll be trying them out! My gun is too valuable for me to be shoving iffy stuff through it.

BAShooter,

Your answers correspond very closely with my other correspondent. "SS" indicates "heavy ball". I think I did pretty well in comprehending what was on the box despite my limited knowledge of Spanish. I do appreciate your assistance.

Bobster,

I don't think the bullets are worth the price!

Hobie,

Worked out to about $.10 per round not including labor to pull and cleaning corrosion off the bases. Hardly a deal. However, when these bullets were used to develop handloads I got 1.5 inch groups from my '09 carbine with issue sights. I believe that load was 40 grains of IMR 3031.

Bobster,

Please note that I said "deal" in quotation marks, as in I was being one sarcastic SOB. I DON'T think it was a deal but rather a rip-off. Especially so since it isn't a 211 gr. bullet load! Again, glad I only got the one box...

Hobie

I was yesterday in Fabricaciones Militares Office.
Some news, following the order of my first mail.

1) 53 vs 54
Fabricaciones Militares personell do not remember some manufacturing of 53mm length cases.
All the ammunition manufacturing for them was 7,65x54mm.

4) COMUN
Indicates that it is not an special application, like tracer, piercing or dummy bullet.

5)LOTE MUN
The most usual for the Production Batch is a number, it could be hand writing .

New details from an specification sheet:
7) Ball description
Weight 12 grams x 15,43 = 185 grains.
Length : 34,2mm times 25,4= 1,346inches
Shape: SS means boat tail
Jacket: Brass, Cu:90%, Zn:10%

8)MK2 MOD 0
They do not have reference of this denomination for rifle cartridges.
The most similar they have is FMK2 MOD 0, but it is used for hand grenades.

BA Shooter

I bought 500 rounds of the so-called "FM 7.65X54mm ammo from Springfield Sporters in PA. It is made in Argentina, and works perfectly in MY 1909 Infantry DWM-made Argentino. It does contain 185-grain spitzer boatails, and some of them I pulled were somewhat corroded into the case necks. I have fired this ammo. It IS non-corrosive. I only cleaned with Shooter's Choice after shooting it, and have not had any rust or corrosion in the bore.

My rifle is extremely accurate with Norma ammo and handloads, (using .311" and .308" bullets in the handloads), but shoots pretty poorly with this stuff! The FM bullets mike about .3145". I have not chronographed this ammo (yet), but have replaced the factory bullets with Sierra .311", 180 grain bullets in 20 of these (reweighed the factory powder), and likewise reloaded 20 of the brass with the Sierra bullet and IMR 4064 powder, with the idea of trying to discover if it is the FM bullets, or bullets AND powder, that make the FM stuff shoot poorly. Haven't shot any of them yet, though, to see what happens.

[ 11-16-2003, 23:14: Message edited by: eldeguello ]