As our expenses spirial out of sight here, I'm wondering about cheap shooting alternatives.

I like ACCURATE rifles, in the MOA range, and I'm wondering if any of the avaliable bolt guns will deliver that kind of accuracy, and, how good is the Russian ammo, that seems to be avaliable in very cheap, large amounts?

Thanks

s

The Finnish Mosin Nagants like the M28, 28/30, and M39 will probably shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA IF (and only if) the bore is pristine and you handload.

You are asking an awful lot for a surplus military rifle using surplus ammo. Most of Russian Nagants I've shot are 2" to 4" groupers at 100 yards.

Just remember these rifles were made to be Minute of Person at 300 yards, which means 10" to 12" groups at that range.

Buzz covered the accuracy issue pretty well. Yes, the round is presently legal in The People's Republik of Kalifornia (for now).

Is it legal in the Dragonov sniper rifle? I know we got nailed on the Dragonov around Dinkin's last year as mayor or Guiliani's first year. Now they're cracking down on the ever popular gang banger gun, the M1 Garand...baynet lugs make it evil, ya know.

As mentioned above the accuracy is not awe-inspiring, as is the case with most milsurps. The quality of surplus ammo and the newer commercial stuff varies significantly, I have found.

Nonetheless, I get groups of 1.5" to 2.5" at 100 yds. with my rifles / carbines. Certainly good enough for some hunting and lots of cheap fun for plinking.

What's the cheapest, and most accurate of the currently avaliable 7.62 x54R rifles?

I just talked to my gunshop owner, and he doesn't much like the idea of trying to take a Mosin Nagant and make it shoot. Why?

s

I have a M-44 that was in such poor condition that I wouldn't sell it.

See this link for some one-hole groups (ragged) produced by handloads. Also see some MilSurp targets and stats.

M-N Project

If you then go to the "Index" link on the page, you can then see the work I did. The work was mostly cosmetic, and probably didn't make it shoot any better.

Steve

Steve:
Our local store has a MN 44 for 50 bucks.
What do you look for, and how much did it cost you to get it to shoot, without killing your shoulder?
s

[ 04-03-2003, 06:23: Message edited by: Socrates ]

Legal, but since it's a steel bullet, with copper coating, none of our local ranges let you shoot the cheap, russian ammo...causes sparks=fire

[ 04-07-2003, 08:18: Message edited by: Socrates ]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO . . .

You're missing the boat.

8mm Mauser.

The M-48 goes for $100

The 98/22 goes for $80

The Turk M-38 goes for $50

Ammo is like dandelions . . . $80 a case of 1000. It's the same as 30-06. Springfield paid Peter Mauser patent royalties on the 30-06, 1903 Springfied because it's the same gun as the 8mm Mauser.

We shoot orange crate sized stumps at 700 yds off a sand bag. Iron sights, Mauser, Turk or 98/22. And we get to choose which corner of the stump we want to whack.

$0.10/rd or less. 155 gr. 2965 fps.

8mm Mauser, Mauser, Mauser . . .

I have some Mosins. Nice, but the Mauser is nicer.

ANY bolt action rifle is classed as Curio & Relic in USA. Kalifornia can't seem to figure out a way to get around that law . . . yet.

[ 04-09-2003, 06:55: Message edited by: HeadSpace ]

I have had extremely good results with the Yugo brass cased, lead copper bullet ammo.

I am just letting the LOC-TITE dry on the scope base screws as I type this on a sporter stocked, scoped and bedded M44.

I bought this rifle from a dealer for $20.00, he was parting it out, due to a broken stock.

I polished the trigger group and bolt, lightened the trigger spring and recrowned the barrel. I put it in a spare stock and started testing from the bench.

Surplus ammo groups were as bad as 7" and as good as 1.25" , averaged for 3/5 shot groups.

So, I decided to buy the synthetic stock and a cantilever type scope mount to see how good the rifle could be,"on the cheap".

Expenses to date;
rifle--$20.00
stock--$59,99
scope base--$39.99
Ruskie/PO/scope--$49.99
rings--$19.99

Teflon/ MOLY bake on finish was left over from another project as was the cammo paint for the stock etc.

total--$189.96

I don't know if I'll be able to shoot it this week or not, gotta' work.

Even if its no better than before, it still shot better than 90% of the commercial rifles I've owned.

Just returned from the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot in Kentucky; one vendor was selling mosin nagant m44's starting at $44.95, still packed in cosmoline to include a bayonet. Many folks were toting them around, sold lots. I was tempted, but I did not succumb to that temptation; saving my change for a black rifle KMule

Socrates,

The thing that sets Mosin and other Milsurp guns apart is the receiver bridge setup...You can setup a scope nice and clean on a Mauser, but Mosin-Nagants have split bridge setup, mounting a scope is a big problem(I've had a scout type setup---fun, but not accurate), and the commercial, quick fix mounting rig that come with a screwed-on bent bolt looks atrocious.
Without a secure scope setup, how good the rifle shoots is not known.

No aftermarket trigger is avail to Mosin either.

.308 Isreal Mausers can be had for a reasonable price, but .308 surp ammo is pricier that 8mm.

All above being said, have you thought about Swedish Mausers? 6.5X55 surplus ammo has dried up but mine(all matching, 1908, Tasco-scoped, Timney-triggered) can shoot 1/2 MOA with handload.

Pyrotek

The 7.62x54R is a classic cartridge that is capable of winning world records. It has in the past. It is capable of 30-06 power up to 150 grain bullets, then drops off slightly with the heavier bullets.

The Mosin-Nagant is a classical design that has proven itself a great battle rifle in the worst of conditions. It too has won world records for accuracy, properly accurized as would be a 98 Mauser, a Winchester or Remington, or take your pick. For a "rack grade" rifle, the Finnish M-39 is the best.

Part of the accuracy problem (in my opinion and experience) is that Russian battle rifles have a chamber that is on the generous side, that is cut to the maximum of headspace. It is necessary to ensure reliable functioning in all conditions. Mud, snow, freezing tempratures, sand, etc, etc. Didn't make a differance as soldiers don't police up brass and reload it.

Bottom line here is that it is a deceant combination that is fairly cheap to buy and shoot. There are other alternatives that cost about the same, yet will probably fit your criteria better. Those of us who use and abuse the "Old Mosin" and the 7.62x54 do it because they like it, not because it is the best. And one day I think I'll have one rebarreled by Tom Novotny with a heavy barrel and match chamber just for giggles and grins.

Regards,

Eric

I have to agree with HEADSPACE, a Yugo 48 or 48a is really the way to go. My Moisin is really a piece of crap, whereas my 48a will easily group 1 MOA.

The nicest MN is one rebarreled for 45-70 or
45-90,with aperture sight mounted.Extractor will
work,magazine will work with a little work.
Can load to good pressures.350 gr bullets great for deer and bear.Or target fun.Ed.

As mentioned earlier, the Finnish M39 is awfully hard to beat in the milsurp department.

The tough ol' Finns took the basic Russian design (in many cases used captured rifles), and put decent barrels on them. When the Russians invaded in the winter of '39, the Finns fought a 450,000 man Russian army, and soundly defeated them with only a 150,000 man army. They inflicted casualties at a rate of about 10:1.

One of their favorite tactics was to lay up in a snowbank, and pick off the invaders at 5-700 yards. At that range, the improved accuracy of the Finn version gave it a big advantage.

The M39 barrel is 27". With that length, you'll get performance midway between the 308 and 30-06. Mine pushes a 180 grain bullet to 2650 fps, and a 123 grainer to 3050. My 20" M44 throws the 123 grainers at 2850, and that is a nice plinker load.

One of the best places to shop for these is Wholesale Guns and Ammo.

As stated, mounting a scope is a pain, but not impossible. You do have to do the bolt handle bending thing. Mojo sights are a big improvement if your eyes are getting older. They are planning to add an M39 sight to the line in the next couple of weeks. With the Mojo, my M44 gives me 2-3" groups at 100 yards, but it doesn't have the better grade Finn barrel.

Yes, I also have a Mauser--Swedish. The Swede is a lovely piece of work. The workmanship on the Swede is beyond compare, and it is a delight to shoot. However, the Finns are a lot of fun to shoot, and most can do 2" groups at 100 yards, if you can. 7.62x54R ammo is dirt cheap. I just bought 440 rounds for $45, and it is quite decent Czech silvertip stuff. For real precision, though, you'll have to handload.

The Finns tested the M39s for accuracy before they were issued. If they would not group 1.3" at 100 meters (5 shots) from a machine rest, they were reworked. I am not aware of any other military rifle that has ever been held to that standard of accuracy.

Thanks Buzz. I didn't know that, and I guess I know which rifle to buy now.

s

Using "accuracy" and "military surplus" in the same sentence is kinda an oxymoron. I have both Mosins and Mausers, and agree that Mauser, as bought, a GENERALLY more accurate. I do have a Polish M-44 which is pretty accurate, using the "Silver tip" Czech ammo. i don't know how available this is, as I "stocked up" some time ago, but think still available. What I've found with ALL my milsurps is that you probably need to re-crown the barrels, as most that have been fired more than a little show "cleaning rod wear" at the muzzle. This has greatly improved accuracy in my guns. I've only shot milsurp ammo in any of them, but have both Mosins and Mausers that'll do 1.5 MOA, on my better days. suspect handloads in a "good" gun could get you to 1 MOA. If I was looking, I'd probably go with a Mauser, for many of the reason stated above. But with nice M-44s going for $50 they're hard to pass up.

Socrates,

Just do remember that most of these guns were reworked in the 40s - so who knows what happened to some of them since then!

Most Sako and VKT M39s are in very good shape with excellent bores.

My M-39 is M.O.A. capable, as well as my M-1917 .30/06, I guess it is a "Ford/Chevy" type of argument. IMHO. Keep it to the bolt action stuff in the P.D.R.O.K., then you'll be safe.

[ 05-06-2003, 16:16: Message edited by: Crazy Cledus ]

I have several Mosins, including a Hungarian M44 that will group 1.5 inches with surplus ammo. I've been meaning to work up a reload for it, but kinda choke when I see the price of brass compared to a case of ammo.

Have a couple Mosins, best is Polish M-44 (re-arsenalled) in near perfect condition. It likes the Czech Silvertip ammo, but shoots pretty well with most milsurp ammo. No scope, but one hole groups at 50 yards not uncommon, and I pretty much suck with a rifle, especially wothout a scope. As mentioned earlier, with the exception of this gun, I've re-crowned the muzzle on every one (well, one Mauser has such a crappy barrel its gonna get replaced). In all cases, this improved the accuracy immensely. Also as noted, honing the action, etc. certainly doesn't hurt either. I'm an inveterate "scrounger", rarely have more than $100 in a milsurp, or more than $200 (including scope) in the ones that were so bad I "sporterized" 'em. Bought a really nice, if well used, target stock for small ring Mauser, at a barn sale last week, for $8, for example.

Have a couple Mosins, best is Polish M-44 (re-arsenalled) in near perfect condition. It likes the Czech Silvertip ammo, but shoots pretty well with most milsurp ammo. No scope, but one hole groups at 50 yards not uncommon, and I pretty much suck with a rifle, especially wothout a scope. As mentioned earlier, with the exception of this gun, I've re-crowned the muzzle on every one (well, one Mauser has such a crappy barrel its gonna get replaced). In all cases, this improved the accuracy immensely. Also as noted, honing the action, etc. certainly doesn't hurt either. I'm an inveterate "scrounger", rarely have more than $100 in a milsurp, or more than $200 (including scope) in the ones that were so bad I "sporterized" 'em. Bought a really nice, if well used, target stock for small ring Mauser, at a barn sale last week, for $8, for example.
In short, many of these guns can be made to shoot well, with some basic tools and TLC. The milsurp ammo isn't the most accurate, although some really isn't bad. Handloading, tho, can give you a REALLY accurate milsurp.