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M1A SUPERMATCH
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New Springfield

Largest installed glass? Mount used?

Accuracy load? Preferably light & fast.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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Macifej

Take a look at the Bassett M14/M1A mount.

www.bassettmachine.com

M1A's seem to always shoot best with 168gr Federal Match, or equivelent handloads.

If you are shooting past 800 yards, 175gr Federal Match, Military 172gr Match or handloads with 175 Sierra Matchkings are in order.

If you are shooting animals at a distance Sierra 165 Gamekings or Nosler 165 Ballistic Tips work great.

For Bigger stuff up close 165 Nosler Partitions have shot good in M1A's for me.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Gonna need something stiffer than that. Working on a new projo/load and want to validate in the M1A although it's primarily a bolt gun load. This small stuff is a PITA.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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The problem is if you go much hotter you beat the M1A to death.

The military teams had 2 M1A's one for across the course [200 to 600 yards] and a seperate M1A for 1000 yards.

The 1000 yard M1A had a cut down front sight, so the rear apperture did not have to be up very high, and a heavier recoil spring, and they fired a "Hot" load in it.

The "OLD" Sierra 180 Matchking was the bullet of choice. Sierra changed its form, shorter boattail, and it would no longer stay super sonic at 1000. Many switched to the 190 MK which increased battering...
But for a Military team money is not a consideration...

Some Civilian shooters went to the 180 Gameking, which kept the same long boattail form...

I used 185 Berger VLD's in my M1A at 1000 yards, I have a Gain Twist barrel...


Palma shooters must use a bullet under 155 grains, but they are using 30 to 32" barrels in bolt guns... And they load HOT.

The 175 Sierra was specifically designed for the 308 and 1000 yard match and Military Sniping...

Because of my Job and Match shooting I was involved in the final load development...

So, everything considered, loads equal to the 175gr Federal Match, will work to 1000 and not beat a M1A to death...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Also let me add, that for match shooting at 1000, you can long throat your barrel, seat your bullets out, and load more powder, and increase your velocity, as you load only one round at a time...

But for Combat, 308 ammo must fit in the magazine...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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All I can tell you here boss is it's 135 grain slug with a very high BC and plenty of room in the case. Beatin' up the gun shouldn't be an issue.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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What distance are you planning on shooting?
What is the BC and what is the velocity?

And remember BC changes with velocity....


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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< 500 yards

BC = .475

MV = 3000 fps

BC changes with everything.
 
Posts: 13301 | Location: On the Couch with West Coast Cool | Registered: 20 June 2007Reply With Quote
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At distances under 800 yards, everything considered, you will be hard pressed to better the performance of 168 Federal Match, or equal handloads...

Especially in a M1A... I have experience with a BUNCH of them. AND several hundred 308 bolt Rifles as well.

Hint: Light for calibre bullets have NEVER done well at longish distances...

In the 308, anything over 300 yards is "longish"...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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For "Serious Use" of an M1A under 800 yards I would get the Bassett Scope mount, a Leupold 3.5/10 Mk IV M3 illuminated, the one with the ballistic cam, and five thousand rounds of 168 Federal Match...

If I wanted to shoot to 1000 yards, I would get 5000 rounds of Federal 175gr Match...

When all this 5000 rounds is gone, it will be time to rebarel and reglass bed...


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
<Andrew cempa>
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Well stated.

Also remember, if handloading stick with powders in the 4895 to 4064 speed range to insure port pressures are near design specs.

Slower powders in both the M1 and M1A/14 are not a good idea-as port pressure increases dramatically and affects the internal ballistics significantly.

The M1A/14 series tend to be tough on brass during extraction anyways (even with in-spec powders/loads), so monitor your brass more closely than with a bolt gun. Most M1A/14 users get 2-4 loads out of new brass, with mil spec brass giving the best life. Fed GM Match brass is noteably soft, often not standing up to 2 firings....

I shoot an NM M1 garand at across the course and LR HP venues (in 30/06) and it is hard to keep a 175 super sonic at 1000 even given an add'l 150 fps over the 308....

The highest BC bullet and heaviest weight is the key- with the 155 lapua or 155 Sierra "new" Palma bullet possibly as good-lighter with as high a BC as the 175 SMK/Nolser.

Do not expect more than about 25-2600FPS out of anything heavier than a 168 in the 308 M1A. The M1 in 30/06 with a 175 can get 2800 or so fps, but that is about all. Use the 4895-4064 range poweders and you're good to go.

If you want 300 ultrawizbangmagnum numbers, get one; sell me your M1A.
 
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Andrew

Good post.

Have you, or do you know anyone that has been able to keep the Sierra 155 Palma bullets supersonic at 1000 out of a M1A or a M1 Garand?

PS I have shot a Garand In Competition as well and I think it is the most fun rifle of all to shoot...

I like the Garand. thumb


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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There's not enough barrel to keep the 155 supersonic, even here at higher altitudes. The 175 worked well for me from Offhand all the way back but even my "600 and beyond" load only made an honest 2600 with that bullet from the M1A.

That said, out to 800 (beyond which things change FAST), the regular Sierra Palma 155 is a great M1A bullet and mimicks the original design parameters as far as port pressures, pressure curves and the like. If I were to limit my shooting to 600 - 800 yards, max I'd just shoot that exclusively.

Simple is GOOD, and I are!

Mark


"Greatness without Grace is mere Vanity" - Hank the Cowdog
 
Posts: 1121 | Location: Florence, MT USA | Registered: 30 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Sad thing is, Sierra should have never changed the original 180gr Matchking...

That was a Great M1A, M1 Garand and 1 in 12 [or 1 in 10] twist 308 bolt gun bullet for 1000 yards.

Back in the day I had a few discussions with Sierra about it.

In a 1 in 10 twist the 190 Sierra shoots good.

The Austrian Hirtenburg company made some 308 Match/Sniper ammo with the 190 Sierra MK.

It was Great Stuff, all the way to 1000.

It shot great in 1 in 10 M1A'S as well.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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As long as we have some experienced folks talking M1A loads......

I was thinking of trying a jug of WC846, but didn't want to get 8lbs of powder without having a better feel for how it compares to the old standby, IMR 4895.

No real need to change, just always wanting to keep as many options open as possible.

Any thoughts?


Tim


0351 USMC
 
Posts: 1537 | Location: Romance, Missouri | Registered: 04 March 2002Reply With Quote
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If I remember correctly WC 846 is a Ball powder.

Ball powders do not seem to be as accurate at long ranges, ie 1000 yards as stick powders.

IMHO of course.


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Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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WC 846 is Hodgdon BL-C2.

The military has used both WC846 and IMR4895 in the M118 cartridge.

Burn rate is very similar.

I prefer stick powders for most accuracy loads.

The military used IMR4895 exclusively in the M852 National Match cartridge.
 
Posts: 49226 | Registered: 21 January 2001Reply With Quote
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Tim, 846 was one of the original propellants in ammo destined for use in M14's. It'll work fine BUT watch for variances between lots - some were huge!

Like NE 450 said, you might have trouble at longer ranges with ammo that groups very well up close. Many double-based powders get wobbly compared to more traditional single-based (4895) powders when conditions change.

Mark
8531 (among others ..)


"Greatness without Grace is mere Vanity" - Hank the Cowdog
 
Posts: 1121 | Location: Florence, MT USA | Registered: 30 April 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Macifej:
< 500 yards

BC = .475

MV = 3000 fps

BC changes with everything.


Given your above criteria of 500 yards I'll take another track. All good comments have been made so far regarding long range loads with the M1A/M14. The only one I've any disagreement with is that I've not known of anyone who uses the 175 MK at an honest 2550-2600 fps that has any trouble with that bullet staying super sonic to 1000 yards. I live at 200 ft elevation and have observed many shooters besides myself here in the Pacific NW shooting 1000 yards with m1A/M14s. However that is not what you asked for.

I've also shot many matches of "combat" or "sniper" style. I have also worked with many M21s over the years while in SF. I also won a state police combat rifle and sniper rifle competition with an M1A. I only mention this to give some credence to my advice.

As to the scope mount and a suggested scope I concur with the previous advise here. With a scope of any real size the base must have 3 points bearing on the receiver. The 3.5x10 Leupold as mentioned is an excellent choice. Where I am going to vary is with the choice of bullet and load. I have found that "light and fast" does not really cut it much past 300 yards. I have found however that a medium weight bullet of 150 gr at 2750 fps works extremely well out to 500 yards. It perhaps is no coincidence that that pretty much matches the ballistics of M80 and the max effective range of 450 meters for the M14.

I'll suggest a Sierra 150 gr MK (not the 155 Palma) or a Nosler 150 gr Ballistic Tip loaded to 2750 fps over H335 or WC846 in LC cases with WLR primers. Use a chronograph and load up to an average velocity of 2740-2760 fps on a 60-70 degree day. That will replicate M80 ballistics out to 500 yards with a much higher degree of accuracy. My such loads shoot sub moa out of my Fulton match rifle and 2 moa or less out of my rack grade. If properly zeroed with the iron sights they will also be calibrated out to 700 meters with that load.

I'll also mention that if you use the RCBS X-die (regular not the small base) to size your cases you will get 16-20+ firings instead of the usual 2-5 firings with normal FL sizing dies. I did a fairly definitive test on the use of those dies in an M1A with a military M14 barrel. I can post or send the results if you'd care to see them.

Larry Gibson
 
Posts: 1489 | Location: University Place, WA | Registered: 18 October 2005Reply With Quote
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Venting the gas system of your piston gun while pushing the 175-190gr for 1K comps helps tremendously.
Gas piston modifications help from beating the gun up also.

M118 mil spec ammo was loaded w/extruded powder.
(won't get you to 1K)
M118LR was loaded w/ball powder.
(will get you to 1K)


Keep'em in the X ring,
DAN

www.accu-tig.com
 
Posts: 430 | Location: Fairbanks,AK. | Registered: 30 October 2008Reply With Quote
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Ya all seem to have a lot of trouble with M118 not making 1000 yards before dropping back subsonic. I've sure shot a lot of M118 white box (loaded with extruded 4895 and M118 Special Ball (Brown Box) loaded with ball powder make it to 1000 yards without problems. I've not only seen it with my own 11 and 12" twist M1As but with numerous M14s and I've watched thousands of such go to 1000 yards at numerous military matches with M14s. Now on the other hand M852 is the Match ammo loaded with extruded 4895 and the 168 MK. It would drop sub sonic between 800 and 900 yards most often. I've seen M118 loaded with both extruded (RL15) and ball powder over the years. The Sierra 175 MK is Sierra's replicant M72/M118 bullet. They both do as well at 1000 yards regarding dropping sub sonic. The Sierra is far more accurate of course.

There was even a major article many years ago when M852 was introduced and shooters were having accuracy problems at 1000 yards. It showed that M118 was the more accurate because it did not drop sub sonic. Some fairly decent 1000 yards scores with M14s were shot with M118 White Box at 1000 yards over the years. The M118LR of course shoots more accurately but that is simply because of the more accurate Sierra 175 MK.

Larry Gibson
 
Posts: 1489 | Location: University Place, WA | Registered: 18 October 2005Reply With Quote
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