OK 120mm lets talk about the Bradley,you stated below in the RPG talk about the faults of the Bradley. What are they?
They have to be an improvment over the M113 at least in fire power,in blast/RPG protection I dont think so as anything with an aluminum hull can be shot through with a shape charge. My time in VN showed that the ACAVS of that era wasnt much protection from RPGs and the drivers area and engine comparment was the weak link for a well placed shot with a heavy MG or even small arms.
Speaking of RPGs when I got VN in early 68 the B-2 rocket was the main RPG being used but then the B-10 rocket showed up which was rumored could defete the the armour of the M-48 which shook those crews up pretty good. Can see by other post that those weapons are gone by the wayside and the new ones have advanced along with our new tracks.Thats more years ago than I like to admit to! Standard equipment there was coils of chain link fenceing to build a standoff against the RPM threat. Look forward to your views.::::::MV

The Bradley. The US Army saw the BMP, realized that it was kind of a neat concept, ie, a vehicle for carrying troops to the battlefield that offered protection as well as the ability to fight prior to dismounting. And it was small, mobile and simple.

So, the army started to develop an "answer" to the BMP. Of course, it had to be better, which led it to be bigger. Which led it to be more expensive, complicated, much louder, etc......

So now, you have this 10 foot tall, loudest freaking vehicle on the battlefield that isn't "that" much better than the BMP. The additional armor they put on it to make it even more survivable makes it even bigger, louder and heavier.

As a scout, the Army, in it's infinite wisdom, thinks it's a good idea for me to have one, but I prefer the M113 for scouting purposes. It protects me from machine gun fire, it gives me acceptable mobility and it is small and quiet. Of course, it isn't the newest and best, so in the eyes of the American Army, it cannot be very good.

Oddly enough, the Army is putting it's M113s, which still is in various supplemental roles, into service escorting convoys, and the expanded wire "armor" as defense against RPGs is back, in addition to sandbags, etc..

120mm,

Heres our current answer to the armoured recce role:



Its armed with a 30mm Cannon and GPMG and is very fast as it only weighs around 18,000lb... Of course the trade off is that it is only relatively lightly armoured.

regards,

Pete

[ 11-05-2003, 15:30: Message edited by: Pete E ]

120mm
Didn't the Marines opt out of the Bradly in favor of the LAV?
Jim

I still think the French got the best idea for "Recce" with their Panhard VBL. Small, light, fast, swims, mounts anything up to an M220 TOW ATGM.

http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/supplement/lav/lav_panhard_vbl.shtml

M-113's, been there, done that. Big, noisy. Always a place to sleep though.

The Bradley? Please! How big is big? Why not just use a tank?

At least with a Hummer most of the rounds fired at it go through. And it's quite and small. Good for a Scout vehicle!

I like the Scorpion, but it's a track, dammit! Whoa! How about that turret on a VBL? Probably knock it over. Oh well!

But then, what the hell do I know? I've only been a Scout for 13 years.

Regards,
Eric

[ 11-06-2003, 06:56: Message edited by: Eric ]

Eric,

Its a Scimiter rather than a Scorpian, but not a bad try for an American! The Scorpian had a 76mm low pressure gun and was withdrawn from service in the early 90's. The hulls were then rettro fitted with turrets and 30mm cannon from the FOX CVR(W) and the new vehicle was called the Sabre. The Sabre and Scimiter as therefore virtually identical in most respects.

Why are you so against tracks on a scout vehicle?
The CVR(T) range of vehicles of which the Scimiter
and Sabre are part have track especially developed for recce work. The are far quiter than usual due in part to the "rubber" pads used. The ground pressure of these tracked vehicles is also very low; they can cross soft ground/marsh where a soldier would get bogged down in for instance.

However, if you *really* wants wheels, how about the FOX pictured below? Same 30mm cannon as the Scimiter, and capable of in excess of 50mph on roads or tracks. You can try it across crountry, but the commader and gunner tend to look as if they have spent an hour in a blender!



The basic problem the CVR(T) and CVR(W) family of vechiles suffer from is that they lack the fast cross country ability of the Challenger 2's now in service with the British army. In effect you deploy your recce screen forward of your main forces but they simply can't stay ahead of the heavy armour when those guys decide to shift ass....Of course they work fine in other roles and it will be interesting to see what their eventual replacement will be...

Regards,

Pete

[ 11-06-2003, 12:26: Message edited by: Pete E ]

Hey Pete E., good pics! Even though I'm just an American, I've trained on the Scimitar as an exchange with (I could screw this up) The 8th Royal Hussars (I think that's the right name for the unit.)

I dispute the general need for speed in a recon vehicle. If recon uses cross-country speed, it is not doing it's job right, anyway, so why not get on the road and haul balls?

If the Big Boys want to get there in a hurry, THEY can stick their stuff out in the wind, for once.

For delivering Infantry to the battlefield, I rate the Bradley as slightly superior to the BMP. As a fighting vehicle, I question why you would bring an IFV to a Tank fight.

Cross-country mobility is one of the things that justifies the M2/M3 as a vehicle. Unfortunately, while the folks in the chassis are still being bumped around a little bit, the guys sitting 10 feet off the ground are being absolutely destroyed, especially with their knees forced into the gun shields. The Bradley is THE most uncomfortable vehicle to command and shoot that I've ever been in, and that includes a large universe of armored vehicles, to include the WWII German Panther, King Tiger, StuG III/IV, And the freaking Mark VII WWI tank.

BTW, anyone interested in a real good armor education, feel free to visit the Patton Museum at Fort Knox, Kentucky, and ask for Mr. Charles Lemon.

120mm,

I think you got the unit right! Did you do any live firing with the 30mm? Its amazing how accurate that cannon is if you have a good team. Of course its all "steam gunnery" when compared to modern MBT's and you had to "shoot and scoot"...no shooting on the move with this kit!

I agree with out to a point about the sneaky stuff, but you also have to be able to do it the other way too and being confined to roads is limiting if not down right dangerous. The British Cavalry have a long tradition of "dash" and the use of a high speed advance (depending on the circumstances)is a very valid tactic.
In the Falklands for instance a Scimiter Troop Commander of the Blues and Royals secured a couple of bridges well ahead of the gameplan simply because he saw his chance and took it.

I spent very little time with the Scimiter, but many happy hours in (and under :-( ) a Fox. Romour has it when they were withdrawn the hulls and engines were sold to Mexico, but I never did find out if there was any truth in this...

A agree bout the Bradley though...If I had to use something that big I would rather go with an MBT; I can't understand why the Army did not buy something smaller like the LAV for this role...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

I knew that, that it was a Scimitar. I had a brain cramp. We Scouts are supposed to have all vehicles burned into our brains. I haven't seen one before, but I've seen a Sabre in front of the Infantry Museum in London. I liked it.

My disliking of tracks (even though the have certain advantages) are the noise. Even with rubber pads (all our tracks have rubber pads) tracks make distinctive sounds and much clanking that is impossible to stop.

As 120mm mentioned, the taller the vehicle, the more you do the "funky chicken" during cross contry travel. I've spent many miles playing pin ball in the turret ring of an M-113, and Hummer's. I've come within a hair of getting tossed out altogether in them both. Comes with the job, but it must be much wose in a Bradley.

For some reason, we here in America just have to give the soldiers (which always includes Scouts) bigger and bigger vehicles. The infantry can keep them. I've always felt that my biggest weapon as a "Recce" soldier is stealth. If they can't find me, they can't kill me or my men. Small and powerfull is good, quite is good, to be amphibious is wonderful. To be huge with none of that is stupid.

Our 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry (Stryker) is on the way to Iraq. They are going to be using versions of the LAV, which is a good thing, but still very big. At least in my eyes. There is a trade off between light and nimble and being harder to kill. I'm a light and nimble guy. Of course I may change my mind if I get called up.

I've always liked the Fox. Swell Scout vehicle, but can it swim? I get tired of looking for river fords and driving around those lakes. Be fun to just keep going, ya know?

http://www.chars-francais.net/archives/panhard_vbl.htm

Regards,

Eric

Eric,

I know that funky chicken feeling too well as you say it goes with the job.

With regards the swimming ability of the FOX, I think there was a kit available, but I never saw one. Doing wading was great fun as a driver; you knew you were going to get wet, so you did your damndest to soak the Commander and Gunner too! The usual way was to hit the ford at speed and create as big a bow wave as possible, then 2/3 of the way across slow enough for it to break...the water would rush into the vehicle through the drivers hatch and gush up and out the top hatches if you got it right! I always had vision of the two guys up top poping out like corks but I could never get a big enough bow wave!

What is the Bradley like in the water? I heard the early models were not so good?

With regards the Panhard, I am sure they produced a 4 wheel armoured car which had a 90mm gun in the turret if I remember correctly the Rhodesians and South Africans used veriants of it...

back to our kit, going back to the 1960's, we also had the Saladin armoured car


These were a bit before my time although we used there hulls for targets at one time...

Regards,

Pete

For those of you have never been in a BMP, it is a small, very cramped vehicle that I would not like to ride around in for any period of time. My understanding was that the Bradly was designed to enable the infantry to keep up with the M1 Abrams.

Pete E
The Bradley can't be any good, it doesn't have a propeller or rudder