I am considering buying a M4 Carbine by Bushmaster or Colt.

Any suggestions on witch to buy? Pros and Cons!

SFC Auton: MSG Curtiss, 3d COSCOM NBC SGM thinks he knows you and says hi!

I would NOT get a Colt M4, due to incompatibility with Hi-Cap magazines, and difference in pin size in the upper/lower receiver join.

The Bushmaster is Okay, though I prefer the Armalite version of the same thing.

Do you want to go flat-top, or A2 carrying handle version? If I were going to buy one today, I'd definitely go flat-top, and go with the "flip-up" style iron sights, and aimpoint, or long eye relief scope.

MAJ Drew L. Schumann
3d COSCOM NBC OIC
LSA Anaconda, Iraq

SFC Auton,

I concur with the MAJ (much as it pains me), the Armalite is a fine piece of machinery, and trust me, I've shot them all. It is the best semi-auto version of the "Mattel" I've ever played with. Dead ringer except for the fire control group, and of course some pertinent machine work.

It may cost a little more (very little), but well worth the price. I've owned two Armalites and I've been booting myself in the butt ever since I got rid of them.

SFC Eric Blatter
249th RTI
Monmouth, OR

(formerly PSG, 2nd Plt, Troop E, 1/82 CAV (Scout))

Get a Rock River. Get better quality than an Armalite, and save some $.

I just gotta look at one of these Rock River thingies! Out of the thousands (well, several hundred) of AR-15/M-16's I've seen and handeled, it has always been difficult to discern differences of quality. With several exceptions which I won't mention. The Armalite always struck me as a quality piece without the extra demanded by Colt's name.

These Rock River rifles must really be something special!

Orion 1, Dude,

you gotta get of that "high horse," it's messing up your common sense.

Mosin-Nagants have taken world class matches, with an original military receiver. The Springfield 1903 series of rifle have taken world class matches, with a Remington-Rand receiver.

As a person that made a living for over twenty years working on machine tools, making parts for numerous types of mechanical thingies, with tolerances of tenths of thousandths, (which are definately not required on ANY rifle), You sir, don't know what the hell your talking about.

IF, and I mean if, NO ONE is using any other receiver, it ain't because they can't, it's because firearm people (and it really pains me to say this), can be among the most fad following people in the world.

You can tell me that Rock River makes better receivers, but you can't show me. I'll bet you a case of Black Butte Stout on it.

your turn.

if the dude is buying a M-4 I'm gonna bet he's not going for tiny little groups, if he was he'd be after the full length AR-15 the armalite is great little weapon and the bushy is no baby either

[ 09-23-2003, 09:19: Message edited by: Dark Paladin ]

Eric

I don't know dick about machine tools but I do know something about service rifle matches. Perhaps it's a fad, but the Rock Rivers are currently the hot ticket. I've had my best year ever (in 20+ years!) shooting an as-issued RR CMP gun, posting several High Master scores and taking the state service rifle championship a couple weeks ago. Pretty good for a POS Wilson barrel, huh?

I have or have had all the names mentioned in this thread and all are excellent weapons, to be sure. In 2000, M/Sgt Harry Harrison won the service rifle crown at Perry shooting what was allegedly a stock Armalite. With the CMP program, it seems EVERYBODY has a Bushy too.

The M16 doesn't inspire the warm, fuzzy feeling my M14s did, but I'm only hunting distant paper now. Point is, I like em all but RR seems to be leading the pack this week, at least among competitive shooters.

I believe that's what Orion's getting at. Then again, we were talking about M4's rather than match guns. That said, my 2 cents answer is - RR first, any of the others, then the Colt. YMMV.

Cheers!

Redial

The M-4 is a neat rifle, but it has its drawbacks as stated before. I have seen lots of ARs. I like the Armalites as far as complete factory rifles go. ALL of the mfgs put out junk here and there. Thats one thing that keeps gunsmiths in business. The Armalites don't really come in for anything major, a trigger problem or something like that. I have seen bad Colts and Bushmasters. My experiences with RR ended when I never could get them on the phone. I had no reason to continue tring. No factory makes a perfect AR everytime. My advice to Alaska Bush Man is to find an AR smith who knows what he is doing. Buy the major parts from Armalite, and have it assembled by a skilled smith. The advantages are that you can build it to your exact desires, ie: fluted barrel, 14.5" with perm brake/flash hider, FF tube, flat-top, flip-ups, EOTech or whatever you like. It ends up not costing that much more and you have a rifle that is unique to your taste. We all have opinions. This is mine.

It's getting good here guys, though as mentioned it's shifted a little away from the original post (whoa, like that's uncommon in this forum!).

D.P.,

My point exactly man. Though some pretty small groups have been shot with short barrels, none have been shot with a standard "shorty" AR 15, nor will they be. The man wants to buy a good brush gun. I'm assuming. And, as stated, of the hundreds of AR 15/M-16's I've handeled, shot, cleaned, they were all pretty comparable in quality. With several exceptions. Personally, I believe Alaska Brush Man could buy the cheapest kit he could find and do as well with it if he's looking for service grade at a low cost.

Redial,

You too have an extremely valid point. I was trying to make several and didn't quite get it right.

I've been shooting and watching the show now for about 45 years. I started shooting a 1911A1 when my dad taught me to shoot about six. Several years back when Rob Leatham started shooting a Springfield .38 Super, everyone had to have one. Every time someone wins at Camp Perry with something that works for him, everyone just HAS to have it too.

Firearms people are faddish I'm afraid.

My point regarding machine tools was supposed to be this. Everything has a blueprint with specifications. If the part is for a government issued rifle, and is made to specifications, it is MILSPEC. Now, generally speaking, parts will vary in tolerance during a production run, for various reasons. Some parts can, and will, be slightly out of tolerance. They should be scrapped, but may not. I'm assuming these parts usually go to the "CHEAPER manufactures" stamped with their name. The good ones stay in house.

I'm of the opinion that the quality manufactures all make good stuff, to "print." Just because no one is using anything other than a Rock River receiver does not mean another receiver won't do the job. As I said, if it's made to print, it's made to print and there will be no difference in quality. Period.

I stand by the statement that if RR receivers are the "hot ticket," it has nothing to do with quality, but everything to do with fads.

Now here is some food for thought. Manufacturing a product takes a certain amount of time. Generally speaking, if it's made fast as possible, there will be some quality problems as metal only cuts so fast, no matter what kind of tooling being used. Fast is "good" from the manufactures view as it is cheaper. So, the cheaper the product, the greater the liklyhood that there will be some defect. Now there are a whole lot of other factors that fall into the equation, however cheaper is usually not better.

jnrifleworks,

Right on man! I really like those 14.5 inch carbines of yours. Now, how about a pre-ban AKSU?

http://www.sandygunworks.com

I multi-task.

Regards,

Eric

[ 09-25-2003, 04:40: Message edited by: Eric ]

I'll agree.% years ago no one knew who RRA was. I know because I was building them. I had trouble telling the difference in Bms and RRA. Wanna Know a little secret? RRA and bushmaster recievers are made by the same contractor on the same machines in the same place! Other than minor asthetics,they are identical.
BBls are another story. I know a distributer who sells gun kits,who bbls them all with custom bbls. A complete AR from them is less than half a brand name Gun. And I have yet to have a problem.Ever in 8 years of building myself.Sticky chamber here and there.
As far as building,there is only one way to build them,the right way. Senseless to pay a gunsmith to screw a bbl on till it times correctly. So easy a child could do it.And assembly from a upper/lower kit,is a joke.
Buy a lower reciever,then a kit of choice.I can assemble one in less than 10 minutes. And No sivillian AR is mil-spec,not even BM. I have original Army data sheets and I broke out the calipers one day.
Paying for a brand name is silly anymore.It they were better in any way,I could see it,but they are not. Same parts,same contractors,same machines,different mane stamping. jerryboy

Thanks guys, for all good advice, I plan on using the detachable carrying handle model. Again thanks for all good advice.

If anyone will listen to me,I just read that Colt pre and post-ban M4 rifles will exept hi-cap magazines.The site might be wrong but........I dont think so.
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

I like my Rock River M4gery a lot. They are accurate and reliable with a very nice trigger. If I didn't buy a Colt I would buy another Rock River.

What will happen after the ban goes bye-bye(if another is not made)?Will they start making pre-bans again?Or will I never ovn a pre-ban?And if they do,will the prices be high(like 2000,3000$)?
Thanks,Tyler Gorski.

no, they will no longer be "Pre Bans" as the ban will not be ineffect, so the prices for them will drop or stay the same as there will always be a market, and demand