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OK, Edmond has posted up 'The World's First SMG,' etc., etc. - now I have one for discussion. What country was the first to issue and use a semi-auto weapon? I think it was the Danes and the weapon was the Madsen "SL rifle" of which I truly know very little. Anyone have pictures, etc of this weapon which was first issued to the Danish Navy (Marines?) in I believe 1896. Anyone know more??? Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | ||
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Guess..   http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/FSA%201917.html       http://www.antiquefirearms.com/pages/414.htm | |||
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Two brothers, Clair, built a semi automatic shotgun in 1888, two years after the Lebel rifle was adopted, the world's first rifle to use a small 8 mm bullet on top of a charge of smokeless powder that had been invented by Paul Vieille. In 1892, they built a semi auto pistol in 8 mm. In 1894, prototypes of semi auto rifles were made. In 1913, a semi auto rifle was adopted to replace all of the Lebel rifles and Berthier carbines. it was the Meunier A6 rifle using a rimless 7 mm round with a very flat trajectory due to its very high speed, the case was 57mm long, more precisely 56.95 mm. Only 1013 rifles had been manufactured when the war broke. Between 1894 and 1913, there was a fierce competition to develop a new rifle. They were tested by: Section Technique de l'Artillerie, Artillery Technical Section aka STA Rifle A 1 later redesigned as Rifle A 4 Rifle A 2 STA 5 Rifle A 3 STA 6 Carbine A 4 Rifle A 5 STA 7 Rifle A 6 STA 8 Ecole Normale de Tir, National Shooting School aka ENT Rifle B 1, ENT 1901, system Rossignol Rifle B 2, System Rossignol Rifle B 3, ENT 1902, system Belgrand Rifle B 4, system Rossignol Rifle B 5, system Rossignol Rifle B 6, system Belgrand Rifle B 7, system Chezaud Rifle B 8, system Vallarnaud Commission Technique de Versailles, Versailles Technical Commission aka CTV Etablissement Technique de Puteaux, Puteaux Technical Section aka APX. Rifle C 1 CTV 1 Rifle C 2 CTV 2 system Chauchat Rifle C 3 APX 3, system Chauchat & Sutter Rifle C 4 APX 4 Rifle C 5 system Chauchat & Sutter modified Naquet-Laroque aka rifle NL Rifle C 6, NL Rifle C 7, NL Rifle C 8 system Chauchat & Sutter aka Indochinese rifle due to its shorter size, developed to arm indigenous troops in Indochina | |||
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Au Contraire, mon ami - if my French, albeit weak, is correct, only one specimen was actually adopted and that was in 1913, some 17 years after the Madsen was adopted by the Danes. and I'm still looking for a picture of the Madsen - I think there is one in W. H. B. Smith's "Small Arms of the World" but my copy is stored and I can't get to it. Also, Edmond, on my last trip through Paris, I noted the guards in the airport at CDG were in pairs, very senior NCO or Jr officer accompanited by a junior NCO. And I think the junior persons were carrying ruger AC556's - when/where/why did the French decide to use this weapon, or was I mistaken in what I thought they were? Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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The Meunier 1910 was adopted first but the ammunition was not adopted, there were endless debates between the described above entities about the length of the case and the subsequent projectile speed. the final choice for 56.95 mm was made in 1912 but the original round had a speed over 1000 meters per second. a lighter load was finally adopted in 1913 hence allowing the adoption of the Meunier. 6000 Meunier Mle1910 rifles were built and delivered to the French army in 1916 to be used by the sharpshooters, they served until 1918. The Rifle 1907 that was based on the Berthier system and adopted for colonial troops will be modified in 1915 to use a 5 rounds clip ( the 07/15 wasd built in large quantity by Remington, this is another story). Delaunay Belleville will produce the Delaunay Belleville 1916 adopted in November 1916. it is a select fire weapon based on a modified 07/15 that was produced by DB. with a practical rate of fire of 100 rounds per minute, the rifle adopted by the commission in Versailles Satory show a slightly degraded accuracy as compared to its bolt action counterpart. It was noted that in fully automatic shooting, the reliability was perfect but the violent recoil and the parts added on the side take the rifle out of aim. this rifle is adopted and enters service on a larger scale than the Federov 1916 that can't be classified as a service weapon. The DB 1916 will be the precursor of the select fire DB 1918 that will be adopted with 3 variants. but the most commonly used semi auto rifle will be the RSC 1917, designed by Ribeyrolle, Sutter and Chauchat who had already designed the CSRG 1915 ( see thread), 86 000 of them will be made and used in 1917/1918. The RSC 1918 was adopted in 1918 as a rifle planned to replace all other rigfles in 1919,it had a shorter barrel than the RSC 1917, all drawbacks had been corrected and it used the standard Berthier clip instead of the proprietary clip of the RSC 1917. Only 10 000 were built, they were tested in combat and later used in the Rif war in Morocco. Once more, the debate is about the adoption date of a semi auto but is the adoption of something that did not work considered as adoption of a semi auto? About the French National Police using Ruger AC 556, in fact the AC 556 is a french design if I remember correctly. Ruger had hopes his Mini 14 would be adopted as a service weapon when everyone was dissastified with the M 16. then he tried to get an order with South Africa when finally the French modified the select fire parts and adopted it for police use. It is called Mousqueton AMD 556 ( for Armement et Moyens de Défense, the technical section of the french police) It was assembled here in Saint Etienne. | |||
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I would say the Mondragon was one of the first working semi auto. http://www.cruffler.com/historic-february01.html | |||
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Un seul prototype, le STA N°8, fut adopté officiellement, il fut nommé fusil semi-automatique A6 (ou Meunier A6) et sa fabrication commenca en 1913...pour être stoppée peu après. translates into Only one prototype, STA nr 8 was adopted officially, it was named Semi automatic rifle A6 or Meunier A6 and its manufacturing started in 1913 to be stopped a shortwhile later. means that from all the various prototypes, one model was adopted , not that only one piece was made. MAS had tooled up to produce 5000 rifles a month when decision was taken not to enter into industrial production stage. | |||
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The Mauser 1896 is semi-auto, with a full auto version called the Model 712 Schnellfuer or something like that. I don't think it was ever the primary sidearm of any Army but it was certainly purchased by several. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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You are right on both points, it has never been officially adopted anywhere, not even the 135 000 pieces ordered in 9 mm in 1917 but it was a worldwide commercial success with one million pieces from 1896 to 1945 (including all copies made in Spain and China) The way Trapper worded his question referred to a rifle, though. | |||
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Only semi automatic or automatic weapon I found a trace of in Denmark, Sweden or Norway is a MG made in 1880, 10 pieces made, so unreliable it was not adopted. | |||
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Hi I am from Denmark and have read about htis weapon. It was called a ' recoil carbine' and used by the Royal danish navy from 1896 to 1900 in coastal fortifications (As far as I remember only about 500 were made). It was succeded by the Madsen light machine Model 1903 whicj resembles the Model 1896. The royal armoury museum in Denamrk has a picture of it on it's website : link Hi-res picture Experimental model 1888 not accepted Machinegun 1896 which replaced the carbine More Madsen machineguns You can accees the online catalog via this link (website in danish though. | |||
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Surely the Mauser C96 equipped with shoulder stock to give troops that would normally carry a pistol the same effective range as those that would carry a carbine must be mentioned in this discussion as the first self-loading "rifle"? | |||
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Tak, Kragh! Interesting links.  | |||
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But I forgot the .455 Webley MkI Automatic adopted by the British Army Royal Horse Artillery in 1913 complete with shoulder stock! | |||
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Is this a great site to learn something or not? Worldwide access to a great group of folks with similar interests. Many thanks to all of you for the info provided! Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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I have a few correction to my reply. Today I went to our local public library and found some new facts about the danish recoil carbine. It turned out, thet the experimental model 1888 was tested alongside Lee an Krag-Jørgensen magazine rifles. The test led to the conclusion from the test commision, that the recoil rifle was unsuited to general infantry use (too complicated + more vulnerable to dust and mud). The commosion recommended the recoil carbine for the new forts being built around Copenhagen instead. In 1893 an improved model was acquired in small numbers (in 1894 only 86 was in stock), and in 1896 50 (not 500 as I wrote previously) was acquired for the navy for use in an coastal fort. I have the impression that less than 200 of model 1888, 1893 and 1896 was ever buiilt. It's successor, the Madsen Light Machine hun however, was in productiom from 1903 to ca. 1955. It was used by many armies and was in use until quite recently in the Brazillian Riot Police B.O.P.E as several youtube films shows | |||
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"French Meunier A6 7mmx59 French M1916?" What can you tell me about this caliber? I have never heard of a 7X59 and would like to know more about it. Additionally on the subject; the French had a great deal to do with ANY successful auto or semi-auto owing in no small part to the invention of smokeless powder. Virtually any auto or auto loading arm as we now know them would be an impossibility with black powder due to the fouling residue, etc.. I recall from reading about Hiram Maxim's work in developing his machine gun - probably the most successful ever invented, variants of the Maxim gun were bought and used extensively by both sides during WWI! As the Vickers, Maxim, Maschinengewehr 08 (called the “Spandau†after the building arsenal) and the Maxima PM1910 “Pulemyot†– that this was problematic for his endeavors. But I fear I have strayed from the original intent of the thread – just curious about the 7X59 cartridge! Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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 The Section Technique de l`Artillerie (STA)developped various rimless high performance cartridges from 1890 to 1912. 6x58 Meunier 1897 6x60 ENT, 1900 6,5x60 CAP 1905 6.,5x61 STA 1910 6,5x55,5 Berthier 1910 7X59 STA 1912 7x57 Meunier 1912 The 7x59 had an initial speed over 3412 fps. It had a steel core as well as the 7x57 (7.2x56,95mm) adopted the same year and retained later for the 1916 with a speed reduced to 2690 fps. Atelier de Construction de Puteaux near Paris manufactured the cartridge, most of the rare samples known are marked APX 1917. | |||
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Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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The Meunier semi-auto rifle would have had a great impact on the war if the French had been able to get them issued before the commencementy of hostilities. | |||
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No. The French would have used them in totally the wrong way and so negated any tactical (or strategic) value. Just as they did their superior tanks in 1940 and the mitrailleuse in 1870. As Napoleon III said, and he knew the French well: "Any invention ahead of its time is useless" | |||
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Still true, unfortunately. but the tactical use of Chauchat was perfect. | |||
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I don't know if his invention was the first, but John Moses Browning should be mentioned in this connection. He seems to have invented the first successful gas operated machine gun. I don't know about his work on a semi-auto infantry weapon. According to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning John Moses Browning (January 21[1] or January 23,[2] 1855 – November 26, 1926), born in Ogden, Utah, was an American firearms designer who developed many varieties of firearms, cartridges, and gun mechanisms, many of which are still in use around the world. He is the most important figure in the development of modern automatic and semi-automatic firearms and is credited with 128 gun patents — his first was granted October 7, 1879. Browning influenced nearly all categories of firearms design. He invented or made significant improvements to single-shot rifles, lever action rifles, and slide action firearms. His most significant contributions were in the area of autoloading firearms. He developed the autoloading pistol by inventing the slide design found on nearly every modern automatic handgun. He also developed the first gas-operated machine gun, the Colt-Browning Model 1895 — a system that would surpass recoil operation in popularity. Other successful designs include the Browning .50 caliber machine gun, the Browning Automatic Rifle, and a ground-breaking semi-automatic shotgun, the Browning Auto-5. __________ If that is corrrect, Browning had a successful gas-operated machine gun by 1895. I think that may be the one that is sometimes known as the "potato digger" because, I understand, it operated by having a flaplike hinged metal device under the barrel that was operated by having powder gasses from the barrel strike it and push it down, and its motion then operated the gun mechanism. The problem is that this gun couldn't be operated by resting on the ground -- it needed sufficient clearance for this device to be operated. "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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FSA 1917 picture, click on the thumbnail. more to come  | |||
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for those who can read French and/or can look at pictures.. http://tir-collection.forumact...0-rsc-1917-et-garand | |||
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Slow motion clip: http://imgur.com/a/3R9Yx | |||
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Edmond, the resemblance to the SKS is superficially striking. Did Simonov borrow from that design? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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it is possible. They are very close. Have a look at the RSC 1917 trigger mecanism and feeding system then look at the Garand, identical. The first semi autos were designed by the French around 1890 then it took decades to change the mind of the top brass and the beans counters.. something on the Garand M1 was a direct copy of the French RSC 1917.  | |||
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First Danish automatic from 1893:  https://www.arma-dania.dk/publ..._view.php?editid1=48 All Danish automatic veapons: https://www.arma-dania.dk/publ...utomatvaben_list.php | |||
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1917-2017  | |||
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