I picked up a bunch of surplus HXP for my Garand, and noticed the bullets attract a magnet.

My Garand has a new barrel. Will steel bullets shorten the barrel life?

The army did studies on this decades back. They concluded that copper washed steel bullets would not hurt the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
The army did studies on this decades back. They concluded that copper washed steel bullets would not hurt the bore.

That's interesting. I'm going to have to see if I can find some information on that. Thanks.

If they are black tip, they have a steel core. Although some may disagree, cupro nickel bullets do contain some iron in the jacket. Again no harm to the rifle. Silver bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
The army did studies on this decades back. They concluded that copper washed steel bullets would not hurt the bore.

Could be wrong here, but I think a lot of 7.62 x 39 is the same.

Grizz

Lots of soft steel jacketed M2 bulleted ammo was made and issued for the M1 Garand. Same with the M80 ammuntion for the M14. Won't hurt a thing, won't decrease barrel life.

Larry Gibson

Arsenal tests of steel-cored AP military ammo found it actually lengthened accuracy life. I'm not sure why, and am not sure they knew why either, but that's what long-term testing showed them. Go figger

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Lots of soft steel jacketed M2 bulleted ammo was made and issued for the M1 Garand. Same with the M80 ammuntion for the M14. Won't hurt a thing, won't decrease barrel life.

Larry Gibson

Let's hope so. I've got a new Kreiger barrel that I don;t want to replace anytime soon.

All Swiss GP-11 ammo for the straightpull Mod 1911 and Mod K31 has a steel jacket.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
All Swiss GP-11 ammo for the straightpull Mod 1911 and Mod K31 has a steel jacket.

No, it doesn't! GP-11 ammo is cupronickel jacketed.

Some of you are getting "steel core" and "steel/bimetal jacketed" ammo confused.

The steel core (steel penetrator) ammo like the M-855 will not harm your barrel.

The steel jacketed and bimetal jacketed ammo will.

How quickly it will damage your barrel? I don't know. I haven't tried it in my firearms long enough to find out. It's just not worth it to me to use cheaper Barnaul or Herter or Norinco or Brown/Silver Bear and other crap bimetal in my guns.

The rifling in your barrel will cut right through the thin copper wash on these bimetal bullets resulting in steel to steel contact.

I don't even like to use Sellier and Bellot (70% copper/ 30% zink) jacketed bullets.

Greek HXP is bi-metal jacketed. I'd use it in YOUR garand, alkalinin, but I wouldn't use it in any of MY rifles!

quote:

Originally posted:
Some of you are getting "steel core" and "steel/bimetal jacketed" ammo confused.

Not really. His question wasn't specific as to whether he was asking about steel cored (like some American AP rounds) or steel jacketed bullets (like some mainly European rounds use).

So many of us answered regards one or the other...he was free to choose whichever response fit his specific need to know.

I emailed Krieger, the maker of the barrel. I'll get their opinion, and post it here.

If you want to see how thin that copper coating is on those Greek HXP bi-metal bullet jackets, get some sand paper and sand through the copper wash to the steel part of the jacket.

That copper wash isn't very thick. I think the purpose of the copper wash is more to keep the steel jacketed bullet from rusting than as a gilding metal to protect the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Not really. His question wasn't specific as to whether he was asking about steel cored (like some American AP rounds) or steel jacketed bullets (like some mainly European rounds use).

Well, the original question asked specifically about Greek HXP ammo. HXP is bi-metal jacketed with a lead core. So you see..... there really is nothing asked about steel core ammo in his question.

Question: I have a new Krieger barrel on my Garand. Will shooting copper washed steel jacketed M2 ball harm or lessen the life of my new barrel?

Kriegers's Response:The short answer is "Yes". Steel jacketed bullets can certainly have a detrimental effect on the surface finish and service life of a barrel. It is not recommended to shoot this type of bullet through a match quality barrel if accuracy is to be maintained.

Thank You,

Krieger Barrels, Inc.
2024 Mayfield Road
Richfield, WI 53076
Phone: 262-628-8558
Fax: 262-628-8748


Sooo...It looks like I have about 1000 M2 rounds to pull & 're-condition'. Anybody have any suggestions on copper/lead core 150gr FMJ bullets?

Oh, I so hate to tell you I told you so!

I figured the barrel maker should have the last word.

quote:

Originally posted by Jpat:
Although some may disagree, cupro nickel bullets do contain some iron in the jacket.

I disagree. In fact, I don't know of any CuNi jacketed bullets that have iron in them.

Do you have any examples of CuNi jacketed bullets that contain iron?

Cupronickel or copper-nickel (sometimes incorrectly referred to as "cupernickel") is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. Cupronickel is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.

A more familiar common use is in silver-coloured modern circulation coins. A typical mix is 75% copper, 25% nickel, and a trace amount of manganese. In the past true silver coins were debased with cupronickel. Despite high copper content, the colour of cupro-nickel remarkably is silver.

It is used in thermocouples, and resistors whose resistance is stable across changes in temperature contain the 55% copper-45% nickel alloy constantan.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Not really. His question wasn't specific as to whether he was asking about steel cored (like some American AP rounds) or steel jacketed bullets (like some mainly European rounds use).

Well, the original question asked specifically about Greek HXP ammo. HXP is bi-metal jacketed with a lead core. So you see..... there really is nothing asked about steel core ammo in his question.

Well, his original question was this:

"Will steel bullets shorten the barrel life?"

As not all of us have HXP ammo, how were we to know whether he was referring to the jackets or the cores as being steel? Or some other type of ammo entirely?

Either type will respond to a magnet....

If you think we should not respond to questions as asked, what would you recommend?

You contend some of us were confused in our answers. Not so. We simply had to guess at what he was encountering (or contemplating) and answer accordingly. I guess our main mistake may have been in bothering to respond at all.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Jpat:
Although some may disagree, cupro nickel bullets do contain some iron in the jacket.

I disagree. In fact, I don't know of any CuNi jacketed bullets that have iron in them.

Do you have any examples of CuNi jacketed bullets that contain iron?

You got quiet on the iron Don.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You got quiet on the iron Don.

Joe, your example above was about CuNi alloys used for tugboat hulls, propellers, and heat exchange fixtures....... not bullet jackets.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You got quiet on the iron Don.

Joe, your example above was about CuNi alloys used for tugboat hulls, propellers, and heat exchange fixtures....... not bullet jackets.

Not necessarily true Don, they were just giving examples of use...not all of them.

Here's the rest of the statement on the site as I didn't post it all:

Other usage

Single-core thermocouple cables use a single conductor pair of thermocouple conductors such as iron-constantan, copper constantan or nickel-chromium/nickel-aluminium. These have the heating element of constantan or nickel-chromium alloy within a sheath of copper, cupro-nickel or stainless steel.[9]

Beginning around the turn of the 20th century, bullet jackets were commonly made from this material. It was soon replaced with gilding metal to reduce metal fouling in the bore.

Currently, cupronickel remains the basic material for silver-plated cutlery. It is commonly used for mechanical and electrical equipment, medical equipment, zippers, jewelry items, and as material for strings for string instruments.

For high-quality cylinder lock and locking systems, the cylinder core is made from wear-resistant cupronickel.

Sometimes too they put cupronickel over a steel jacket.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I guess our main mistake may have been in bothering to respond at all.

Probably...... if you don't know what's being asked or what you're talking about.

Joe, the article you posted above just said that they used CuNi jacketed bullets since the begining of the 20th century. They didn't mention the alloys used to make CuNi bullet jackets.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Sometimes too they put cupronickel over a steel jacket.

Then that would NOT be properly called a "CuNi jacketed bullet" but would be referred to as a "bi-metal jacketed bullet".

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:
Joe, the article you posted above just said that they used CuNi jacketed bullets since the begining of the 20th century. They didn't mention the alloys used to make CuNi bullet jackets.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Sometimes too they put cupronickel over a steel jacket.

Then that would NOT be properly called a "CuNi jacketed bullet" but would be referred to as a "bi-metal jacketed bullet".

But the other true cupronikel jacket can very well have iron in it. Depends on how much the country wanted to pay as nickel is expensive, iron is not. What difference does it make Don? Iron is softer then steel and their isn't very much of it in the jacket material if any all...like I said, depends on what blend they bought.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ: What difference does it make Don?

I guess it is kind of a "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" type issue IF you are talking STRICTLY about CuNi jacketed bullets. Because CuNi jacketed bullets (like the Swiss G-11 and early G-90) will not wear out barrels like mild steel jacketed stuff will.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I guess our main mistake may have been in bothering to respond at all.

Probably...... if you don't know what's being asked or what you're talking about.

Well, I know what the question was. I quoted it for you. Perhaps you ought to read what specifically was asked, again. And for steel-cored bullets the answer I posted was correct.

your comment about being confused, on the other hand, appears to me to be pretty superflous, rude, and uncalled for.

Whatever. Makes no ultimate difference what you or I think anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Well, I know what the question was. I quoted it for you. Perhaps you ought to read what specifically was asked, again. And for steel-cored bullets the answer I posted was correct.

Listen, AC! When alkalinin mentioned Greek HXP, I was familiar with that ammo and KNEW he wasn't talking about a bullet with a steel penetrator. How clear can I make that?

When a barrel is "worn" out it is usually because the throat "washes" out, because of the burning of the powder, not the wear of the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
When a barrel is "worn" out it is usually because the throat "washes" out, because of the burning of the powder, not the wear of the bullet.

The problem is....... you can't shoot a rifle without burning powder.

However, you can shoot bullets other than those with steel jackets.

But the true fact is, it is the burning powder that wears out barrels, not the bullet.

Even if steel acketed bullets wear the barrel three times faster that a standard acketed bullet, it will not matter.

The barrel will still be "wore out" long before the steel jacketed bullets have any effect on barrel wear.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
But the true fact is, it is the burning powder that wears out barrels, not the bullet.

Even if steel acketed bullets wear the barrel three times faster that a standard acketed bullet, it will not matter.

The barrel will still be "wore out" long before the steel jacketed bullets have any effect on barrel wear.

You can easily set back a barrel with throat wear.

But how do you "put back" the lands in a barrel that has been prematurely worn down by using cheap steel jacketed bullets?!!!

Steel jacketed bullets have a copper wash, bi-metal skin or are plated with something to prevent rust on the ammo. This was also helps to lubricate the bullet when fired.

Normal practice with any barrel that no longer shoots well is total replacement.

Who would set back a Garand barrel???
No one....

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Steel jacketed bullets have a copper wash, bi-metal skin or are plated with something to prevent rust on the ammo. This was also helps to lubricate the bullet when fired.

There's an excellent article in the May/June 2011 issue of "Front Sight" magazine.

The author Eric Jay Miller has scanning electon microscope and energy dispersive x-ray analysis images of fired bi-metal jacketed bullets that clearly show that rifling to steel jacket contact has occured.

On some bullets he measured, the Cu coating over the steel jacket was only 12μm thick (a human hair is about 50μm).

So if you think that copper coating serves any purpose other than keeping the steel of the bullet jacket from rusting, I've got a bridge to sell you.

The bottom line is, to answer the question of the original post...

The burning powder will wear out the throat of the barrel of a Garand, LONG before the steel bullet jackets have any effect on the rifling.

Usually a 308 Sniper rifle will be accurate to around 5000 rounds, give or take a few hundred rounds.

For a deer hunting rifle you can go to say 7000 rounds or so...

I know some match shooters, that can do their own work, that will set a 308 barrel back at around 3000 rounds, Magnum shooters usually set a barrel back at around 1000 rounds. [ A 300 Mag Match barrel is usually done accuracy wise at around 1500 rounds, if not set back earlier].

I do not know of any one that sets a barrel back more than once, unless they set them back at an earlier round count, then they might get 3 set backs with a 308 barrel.

Most match shooters that cannot do their own set back work, shoot a barrel to a certain round count and get a new one. The main plan being not to have a barrel go south durring the competetive season.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The bottom line is, to answer the question of the original post...

The burning powder will wear out the throat of the barrel of a Garand, LONG before the steel bullet jackets have any effect on the rifling.

Usually a 308 Sniper rifle will be accurate to around 5000 rounds, give or take a few hundred rounds.

For a deer hunting rifle you can go to say 7000 rounds or so...

Beg to differ. I find the bottom line to be this. If you're shooting enough to wear out barrels, have a gunsmith put on a new one and consider yourself a happy man This is based upon the belief that if you can afford to buy or build the thousands of rounds it'll take to wear out the barrel, you can also afford to spring for a new barrel.

Or just buy a different gun.

quote:

On some bullets he measured, the Cu coating over the steel jacket was only 12μm thick (a human hair is about 50μm).

So if you think that copper coating serves any purpose other than keeping the steel of the bullet jacket from rusting, I've got a bridge to sell you.

And did he fire thousands of rounds through multiple barrels both with and without a copper wash to see what the effect on barrel life is? No.....And you can keep your teeth...

Are you going to set back a Garand barrel in this life time?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

On some bullets he measured, the Cu coating over the steel jacket was only 12μm thick (a human hair is about 50μm).

So if you think that copper coating serves any purpose other than keeping the steel of the bullet jacket from rusting, I've got a bridge to sell you.

And did he fire thousands of rounds through multiple barrels both with and without a copper wash to see what the effect on barrel life is? No.....And you can keep your teeth...

You can go ahead and shoot all the bi-metal cheap stuff in YOUR guns! I could care less!