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US Army 1911 - valuable?
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I hope there's some 1911 eggheads on here that can help me out. A friend of mine recently passed away and his wife is trying to determine what's in his gun safe. The firearms will stay in the family, but they want to know if some of the pieces are collectable. Here is a description of one of the pistols:

Ithaca .45 M1911 1A U.S Property US Army
s/n 1863394.
Two small markings on right side by trigger area – Crown emblem with BNP below it and a Crossing Swords with 148 under it.

Is this something to use a truck gun or does it have any particular value? Thanks for any help.


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Posts: 217 | Location: Clute, TX USA | Registered: 23 June 2006Reply With Quote
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There are more nuances in 1911 collecting than in any other firearm. Thus it is very difficult to make a decent estimate without at least a number of quality photos and more specifically an actual takedown inspection of the parts.

However, from the description you've given I can tell you it was made during WWII and your description of the marks sounds like it was a lend-lease to England. Beyond that I cannot say.

Collectiblity depends upon condition. The more original, the more the value. It should be properly evaluated by a 1911 collector of some repute.


Mike
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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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quote:
Two small markings on right side by trigger area – Crown emblem with BNP below it and a Crossing Swords with 148 under it.


Officially Colt 45 1911A1 pistols were never a "Lend Lease" item.

Some 1911A1 pistols were obtained by the British Purchasing Commission but this was in 1940 BEFORE the Lend-Lease Act.

And some of those were in fact in .38 Super. I had one a long time ago a Colt .38 Super Match and like ALL such they had ENFIELD stamped MILITARY INSPECTION MARKS of a CROWN OVER E.

These were known in the UK in the 1980s as "Heydrich Guns" because, from that batch, some of them (obviously never recovered) in 38 Super were supplied to the Czech agents parachuted into Europe to assassinate Reinhard Heydrich.

The BNP MARK referered to are COMMERCIAL BIRMINGHAM PROOF HOUSE MARKS. These indicate a gun bought long after WWII, maybe in bulk from a "jobber" in the US or other foreign country, then imported into Britain for sale into the private civilian market.

As such IMHO those Birmingham Proof Marks actually lower the value of the gun as a collector item.

That it has BNP on it indicates that it was proved AFTER 1954.

This may help:

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Dating%20your%20rifle.htm
 
Posts: 6825 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: 18 November 2007Reply With Quote
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My guess is that 1911 is NOT a truck gun. I do not know what it is worth, but Ithica did not make too many and depending on condition and matching numbers, there would be some collectors interest.
 
Posts: 5735 | Location: Ohio | Registered: 02 April 2003Reply With Quote
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Unfortunately, the info provided by Endfieldspares may or may not be 100% correct.

As I stated, there are more nuances regarding 1911 pistols than any other firearm I am aware of. It is now back home in the USA with the BNP/crown mark, so it clearly spent sometime in England, where the marks were applied. It was made in 1944. My guess is that it returned home sometime in 1955 or later.

And "official" lend-lease is an incredible misnomer.


Mike
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Posts: 3577 | Location: Silicon Valley | Registered: 19 November 2008Reply With Quote
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5) British M1911A1 WW II Lend-Lease: From all S/N’s of U.S. M1911A1 models = March 11, 1941 through the rest of WW II ( The U.S. furnished 39,592 pistols to Britain through the Lend-Lease Act.)

http://www.sightm1911.com/1911Production.htm



1944 Ithaca M1911A1

The serial number allocation indicates it is a 1945 Ithaca 1911A1, but upon further review of Ithaca shipping records the gun is actually a 1944 production. The gun shipped on December 9th, 1944 to the Transportation officer at the Benicia Ordnance Depot, Army Point, California along with 2600 other pistols. The barrel (stamps are not shown) is a High Standard and stamped HS on one lug and P on the other.

Ithaca started production in December of 1942 and was the only established firearms company to produce 1911A1s other than Colt. The total number of pistols produced by Ithaca was 335,466. In early 1942 & 1943 Ithaca did not have all the equipment necessary to manufacture the components so they received parts from other contractors that included 6,200 WWI receivers that Springfield had in storage. These early Colt receivers (frames) can be quickly identified by the cut-outs under the stocks. Colt also supplied many of the small parts. Harry Howland of Ithaca designed a stamped trigger assembly that was approved by the Ordnance Department. This stamped trigger was fabricated by the Yawman Metal Products Co. of Rochester N.Y. and became known as the Yawman Trigger. The new trigger was adopted by all other pistol manufacturers by early 1943, except Colts who changed in April of 1944. Changing to the stamped trigger alone reduced the cost of the 1911A1 by about 5%.

Later in the war Ithaca also designed a serrated Grooved hammer as a cost reduction but none of the other manufacturers adopted it. Ithaca pistols were probably the coarsest finished pistols of any 1911A1. This seems puzzling since they were previously a manufacturer of sporting shotguns and as such they must have appreciated the importance of cosmetic appearance.

VIEW PHOTOS

http://coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911/1944ithaca.htm


-Collectors Guide-
Index of M1911 and M1911A1 Manufactures
(and links to examples of their work)

This page has summary overviews of the manufacturing companies whom produced Model 1911 and Model 1911 A1s. In each manufacturers summary you will find links to examples of their product produced by year. Also found below are references to the top books written on the subject of collecting M1911 and M1911A1 pistols.

As a added bonus Karl Karash has made his two writings entitled "Beginners Guide to Collecting the 1911/1911A1 Parts 1 & 2" available to site visitors to down load. A donation of $1 sent to this website for each download of the pair and for each printed copy of the pair made, is requested by the author, to help defray operating costs of this website. This page is updated often!
Regards,

http://www.coolgunsite.com/col...ors_guide.htm#Ithaca

http://www.coolgunsite.com/col...ors_guide.htm#Ithaca


1944 Colt M1911A1
British Lend Lease

This Colts made M1911A1 pistol serial #1635678 was shipped in August of 1944 to the Transportation Officer, Springfield Armory. This pistol has all of the characteristics and features of a Colts made mid war 1911A1 including: Serrated ramp front sight, wide spur hammer, checkered slide stop, thumb safety and hammer, wide square notch rear sight, stamped trigger, Plastic stocks with large rings around the screw holes, and an un-serialed slide. The mainspring housing has serrations instead of the earlier checkering. This pistol ended the war in England yet probably never was issued going by its “New” condition. If this pistol could talk, it would probably not be able to tell any interesting stories as it probably spent its entire life in a warehouse. The British proof marks, including a “Released British Government 1952” and “Not English Make” marking, were applied prior to its export from England. Most collectors consider British proofmarks on a 1911A1 to be an undesirable characteristic and the marks will often decrease a pistols value somewhat. Whereas others consider that the particular brand of defacement the British used with these pistols is an acceptable penalty, to get these pistols out of their hands before they have the chance to turn them into scrap metal, in their single minded drive to make England safe for “Tea and Crumpets.” Should the prices of these British proofed pistols rise to where a premium is required for purchase, perhaps it should be considered as a “Ransom payment” rather than a premium. (British marks are usually found on Lend-Lease Act guns).

1911A1s made at Colts Manufacturing Co. from about serial #848000 to about serial #2360400 generally have applied the final Ordnance acceptance mark of “G.H.D.” that was applied by civilian inspectors at Colts under the authority of Colonel Guy H. Drewry. Mr. Drewry was promoted to Brigadier General on September 10 1942 and he was therefore a General Officer at the time this pistol was accepted.

This 1911A1 was once part of the Julius T. Kosan collection. There are numerous photographs of Mr. Kosan’s in such books as: “COLT .45 SERVICE PISTOLS” by Charles Clawson” and “U.S. MILITARY AUTOMATIC PISTOLS 1894 – 1920” by E.S. Meadows. As such, these pistols are usually the among best examples to be found anywhere and are often used as reference examples for the various models. Reference Charles Clawsons “Colt .45 Service pistols”.

VIEW PHOTOS:

http://coolgunsite.com/pistols...20Colt%20M1911A1.htm



In my opinion you have a rare piece of history Caretaker.
 
Posts: 56912 | Location: GUNSHINE STATE | Registered: 05 October 2003Reply With Quote
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Ithaca made in 1945 BNP?

If a Model 1911A1 made in 1945, by Ithaca, and marked "NOT ENGLISH MADE", is it BLL, still in 1945, and is it valuable? Thankyou, Andy


http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=16811


1945 Lend Lease Act 1911A1

I have a 1945 100% "mint" as in perfect in all respects 1911A1.

I have never shot it.
It's markings are below -
"Not English Made " on the barrel & slide plus (3) proper proof marks and correct mark on the slide and ejector port
"Released British Government 19XX"…?? cannot read the last two numbers on year date on the frame.

A) Does it have a higher colector value or interest in the Colt collector world ?

B) Is a letter from Colt going to add value to a collector on this gun at resale ? How do I get that letter.

C) I have no value because this variation is not discussed in the Blue Book -
Thanks
John

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=9212
 
Posts: 56912 | Location: GUNSHINE STATE | Registered: 05 October 2003Reply With Quote
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What would you call this pistol?



Rusty
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