The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Military & Military Surplus What .223 ammo is working well in Iraq?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
It's not the .22 caliber...... it's the PENETRATION ...... and probably the reason they keep the M855 in use! Those 77gr. Black Hills match bullets probably don't cut it! Probably good on SOFT targets. I've shot through a few vehicles in my time. The M855 is the best round I know of...... Accurate doesn't mean squat..... if it doesn't penetrate the target! | |||
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Abandoned cars in the junk yard dont count. William Berger True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all. | |||
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Works pretty good on cars filled with screaming kids too! | |||
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Let’s see...there’s a car or truck approaching your position that you want to stop. Do you employ the M2 or the Mk 19 mounted on your Humvee?...Nah...just grab your handy-dandy M4 with a .22 caliber 10 grain steel penetrator round!!!  | |||
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Well I hate to break some hearts, when we deployed to Iraq for OIF 1 the biggest weapon our BN had were M-249. The also have M-203's, but they wouldn't issue the rounds it stayed locked anyhow. If we had to shoot a car or truck I guess we would have to use as you put it our 22 cal bullets. Unfortunatley not every unit has the same weapons as the Combat arms folks. I imagine a SAW that can dump a 200rd drum in no time can stop something or greatly reduce that risk. On another note our BN is finally getting M2. John Handmade paracord rifle slings: paracordcraftsbypatricia@gmail.com | |||
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John, You seemed to have missed the point of my little bit of humor. It was stated that the M855 round was “the best†he knew of for penetrating cars and trucks. Would you agree with that statement? If that’s all you have then it is obviously better than a bayonet or throwing your K-Pot at them, I guess. | |||
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I'm tracking now. If I had access to a 50 cal or a 240B or even a MK19 then of course that is what I would use. John Handmade paracord rifle slings: paracordcraftsbypatricia@gmail.com | |||
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500Grains It was the 77 grain bullet. It works ok on soft targets, lacks penetration on hard targets. If you want the best bullet for "home" defense in the 223 shoot Winchester 55 grain Ballistic Silvertips. Good performance on soft tissue limited penetration on walls etc. Back it up with M855 when you need penertation. Or use Federal Tactical rounds with Trophy Bonded Bearclaws. They work better shooting through glass. If you have to shoot deer with a 223 the Federal Tactical rounds are probably your best choice. Or just use your 500 Nitro.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thank you very much. That is great info. | |||
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And if your deer is hiding in a car or behind a wall??????????? | |||
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Rick 0311 Sad thing is the 223 is just not a round for good penetration through most cover. Again, while the 308 [ala M 14] might be a little better, even 308 ball is not a great penetrator. 308 AP would seem to be good for urban warfare. [I have a "little" experence with Israeli AP loaded by FN]. but 308 AP is not in the "pipeline". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Anything short of AP .50 caliber isn’t gonna “punch†through much in the way of cars, trucks, and buildings, reliably. You would be surprised how many rounds won’t even penetrate car windows, let alone car bodies 100% of the time. | |||
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I know 308 will "cut" through car glass. And 308 AP makes life very unsafe for people inside a vehicle [shooting through the vehicle body]. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The problem when your targets are human is it is pretty much impossible to come up with a round that will work equally well on soft tissue and hard targets. I fought in Hue City during 68 Tet and we used M79’s, LAAW’s, 106’s, tanks, and even a few old 3.5’s for enemy personnel inside buildings, behind structured walls, and hiding behind vehicles...when we could get them! When we couldn’t we did just like every other grunt in every other war has had to do...and at that point you want a round that will put somebody down not just zip right on through them like a flying ice pick. | |||
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Rick 0311 You are correct, it is a choice, good performance against a "soft" target, or good penetration in a "hard" target to reach a "soft" target. As a buddy of mine once said, "After the first few shots EVERYBODY is hiding behind "something". DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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You should read some of his crap on the Politics forum  | |||
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What is the TITLE of this thread, moron?!!!   Oh, THAT'S RIGHT! 'What .223 ammo is working well in Iraq?' So I was talking about 5.56x45 ammo. Well the M-855 penetrates vehicles better than any .223 ammo 'generally' issued. No, Einstein ..... your 'reductio ad absurdum' doesn't work. I didn't mean to say it penetrated vehicles better than the .50 BMG!  PS - Like I told M1Shanker...... do some testing! PPS - Black Canyon, M1Shanker? | |||
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Hey you two play nice you are going to be neighbors real soon. Maybe you two can go out and test the ammo together.  John Handmade paracord rifle slings: paracordcraftsbypatricia@gmail.com | |||
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Me and M1 ran some of that m855 through my CZ kevlar varmint today, my gun will shot any factory ammo except wolf into MOA or less. I managed a 3" group with it and M1 was getting a shotgun pattern that ended up being about a 6" group it was shooting very erratic, the stuff is not suitable for plinking, I would hate to go to war with it. M1 says the thing to do is pull the bullets and stick on a suitable bullet, which to me sounds like a great idea. It will save me tons of reloading time, I am going to play with some seating depts and bullets to come up with a plinking load with the stuff in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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Cummins, sounds like you are twice the marksman M1 is! Range was....... oh let me guess.....100 yds? Didn't you take some M-193 for comparison? I'd bet it shoots about as well as M-855 at that range! Providing your Cz527 has a 1:9 twist and not a 1:12. | |||
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Cummings cowboy The twist in your bbl might be too slow for the M-855. Several years ago a couple of guys did a test of 223 Ball ammo. They used 2 different AR-15 rifles, a 1 in 12 and a 1 in 7 twist bbl. They were bench rest shooters, they shot off the bench with 12 power scopes on both rifles. The Ball ammo averaged 2.5 inches at 100 yards. The best was about 2 1/4" the worst almost 3". If you really want to test the accuracy of your 223 use different commercial ammo, bullet weight depending on the twist of your bbl. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I have no experience with the .223 other than in the early M16, and in a word: BAD! Now let me say I had a M722 Remington years ago, chambered in .222 Remington, a virtually identical round to the .223. When you shot handloads with Hornady 55gr bullets this was as accurate as any rifle I have ever owned and with virtually anything else it was about average. Really, if a groundhog was out in the open and within 300yds he was in serious danger of being suddenly dead! My point is this: IF the 222 Mag was this prone to being a 'one-bullet' rifle would it not stand to reason the 223 would be the same? And if you go from light to heavy in the .223 dia bullet you have changed the characteristics of the bullet drastically. Hornady alone offers bullets from 40gr to 75gr bullets in .223 dia. I believe, based on this data, every rifle is going to be most accurate within a given range of bullet weights, perhaps even with a given bullet, and I believe it will be more pronounced in the .223 dia that it would in say a .308 caliber rifle. Just my idle thoughts based on more years of reloading, shooting and tinkering than I like to admit. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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TrapperP is correct, any rifle will like some bullets, and some factory loads better than others. However usually a 1 in 12 twist bbl will not stabilize the longer/heavier bullets. Length is actually the problem, some 1 in 12 twist rifles will shoot the 70 gr Speer [short semi round nose] and will keyhole with the 69 gr Sierra. The first 223 AR's had 1 in 14 inch twist bbls. It was discovered that even they would keyhole with 55 gr Ball in very cold temps, thus the twist was changed to 1 in 12. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Specs on a CZ527 Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Rem) Barrel Length: 24.0" (609 MM) Barrel Details: Hammer Forged, 1:9" Twist John Handmade paracord rifle slings: paracordcraftsbypatricia@gmail.com | |||
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I am sure M1 could prolly outshoot me, he has had many many times more rounds sent down range than I have even thought about. In this case the shooter had nothing to do with it, my CZ varmint I believe has a 1:9 twist which should work fine for the 62 grn bullet. I also tried it today in my CZ carbine which has a 1:12 twist I believe. It shot a 3" group, this stuff sucks for accuracy!!!! especially in known shooting rifles in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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I don't think anybody is surprised to hear that M-855 shoots 2-3 MOA in some decent rifles. Have you tried some M-193, Cummins? I think you'll see little if any improvement at 100yds. Both of these are exposed lead base bullets.... There is really NO comparison between the accuracy of these military bulets with any quality match or even hunting bullets. | |||
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+1 | |||
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-1 in on the paper results, HP Shooter! Doubt if you've done much actual shooting with EITHER M-193 or M-855 where you could actually measure the results on paper at ranges beyond 200m, eh, "HP Shooter"?!! I have! | |||
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You would be surprised to know how wrong you are. In any case, I am done with your dumb ass. I;ve read your rants on the political forum, and I am not going to lower myself to your infantile level. | |||
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Aha! So I'm correct! You've never tested M-193 and M-855 side-by-side! No need for you to prove your 'information' as FACTUAL, HP shooter..... when you don't know what you're talking about! Just declare VICTORY and RETREAT, eh, bro' HP???! | |||
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Since you seem to be the only one who claims M855 (with its notoriously off center penetrator) is more accurate than M193, why don't YOU offer up proof to back yourself up? How about posting pictures of groups shot with both types with the same rifle? It might be nice if you indicate what range and distance your feat occured. Also, why don't you post up a copy of the DoD accuracy specs for 5.56X45 ball ammunition? Otherwise, ESAD. BTW, I'm in SW Ohio. Miami Rifle & Pistol Club has a range with 200, 300, and 600 yd firing lines. You are welcome to come by and show me up any time. | |||
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Hey, there BS Shooter! Can't check and test your own 'FACTS'? Figures?  U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 grain bullet (+/-) 2 grains.. at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 (+/-) 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). "Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA (from a test fixture). Velocity from an M16 rifle or pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1/M16A2 rifle at ranges of 100 to 300 yards. U.S. M855 Ball requires a 61.7 grain (+/- 1.5 grains)..... with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps (+/- 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA....BUT the M855 Ball will deliver accuracy of 4MOA at 600 yds! Long range accuracy (200m plus) of the M855 is better than the M193. But a BS Shooter, like yourself, won't believe me and won't believe the U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. SO...... IF YOU ARE UNABLE OR UNWILLING TO MAKE YOUR OWN TESTS OR RESEARCH KNOWN AND PUBLISHED DATA, BS SHOOTER! WHY DON'T YOU JUST FOAD?!!! | |||
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Duman, Please share with us exactly what testing you have done with the 2 different types of ammo. What rifle were you using, conditions, ranges, and of course, your accuracy results. All you have done so far is sling insults, but you have not offered any hard information. Myself and others answer a question with honesty and a desire to pass on our knowledge. And out of the blue you hit the attack mode. You lash out without offering any productive results yourself. If you can share real and valid results I would love to hear them. If they are different than mine I would like to know that. Not from a contentious view, but because I like to learn from others knowledge and experience. There are a lot of times that what is portrayed on paper is not what the real world experience will bear out. If you wish to test the 2 ammo's side by side my offer still stands. I will send you a batch of each to test for your self. William Berger True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all. | |||
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You should know by now that having an intelligent conversation with SGT Rock, famed Remington (as in the typewriter) Raider, is an exercise in futility. | |||
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Unless you post a link to the source where all this tripe came from, I stand my ground that you are a bullshitter of Titanic proportions. M855 a 4 MOA ammo at 600?  | |||
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Yup! Not exactly match accuracy..... but better than the M193 at that range! And that IS what we're talking about isn't it? M855 vs. M193 ... accuracy at longer ranges? | |||
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I think it is truely amusing to hear that the military is still casting about trying to find a decent combat load for the 5.56mm NATO cartridge, after many of us in service at the time tried to tell the "whiz-kids" that the Mattel rifle was no substitute for the M14. It wasn't then, and never will be, until they redesign the platform to use an effective round. I would much rather carry 200 rounds that each work than 600 that don't! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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They already have a great round for the M-16, it's called the 6.8 SPC | |||
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Other than certain Special Operations units I don’t believe you are going to see the 6.8mm adopted by the military at anytime in the foreseeable future. | |||
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It's even doubtful for spec ops. The SCAR specs call for 5.56 and 7.62 variants. | |||
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