It has come to mine and swheeler's attention that the 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser in both the 1891 and 1909 models have two different rifling twist. I have both the 1891 Engineers Carbine and a 1909 rifle. My twist are both 1 turn in 9.8. This was figures with a tight patched jab and marked cleaning rod. Mr Wheeler has a few 7.65 rifles and his measurements with the same method are showing between 1 turn in 10&11 inches. Loading manuals say, for example: Hornady & Speer both 9.8, Lyman 9 4/5. One can research on the internet and finde both the 9.8 and 11. So question is to you owners out there do measure your twists and see what we come up with. Would appreciate it.

Well hopefully that will get some to mmeasure a few, get a larger sampling. I'm guessing they used a couple different twists over years of production.

Argentine barrels would have a metric twist.

9.8" = almost 250mm per revolution
10.8" = about 275mm per revolution

One would be appropriate for the long round nose bullets that were originally used.
The other would be appropriate for the later lighter spitzers.

Sound familiar??

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Argentine barrels would have a metric twist.

9.8" = almost 250mm per revolution
10.8" = about 275mm per revolution

One would be appropriate for the long round nose bullets that were originally used.
The other would be appropriate for the later lighter spitzers.

Sound familiar??

Sounds good SR, but in reality doesn't work that way because by the time they got to the 1909's they were using the lighter weight and shorter spitzers, and many of the 1909's have the slower twist...and I believe a good number of the 1891's, which did use the heavier longer bullets, had some faster twists.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Argentine barrels would have a metric twist.

9.8" = almost 250mm per revolution
10.8" = about 275mm per revolution

One would be appropriate for the long round nose bullets that were originally used.
The other would be appropriate for the later lighter spitzers.

Sound familiar??

Sounds good SR, but in reality doesn't work that way because by the time they got to the 1909's they were using the lighter weight and shorter spitzers, and many of the 1909's have the slower twist...and I believe a good number of the 1891's, which did use the heavier longer bullets, had some faster twists.

And you think all of the old stock ammo got shot up just in time to switch to the new barrels which were all made at the same factory on the same tooling? Really?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Argentine barrels would have a metric twist.

9.8" = almost 250mm per revolution
10.8" = about 275mm per revolution

One would be appropriate for the long round nose bullets that were originally used.
The other would be appropriate for the later lighter spitzers.

Sound familiar??

Sounds good SR, but in reality doesn't work that way because by the time they got to the 1909's they were using the lighter weight and shorter spitzers, and many of the 1909's have the slower twist...and I believe a good number of the 1891's, which did use the heavier longer bullets, had some faster twists.

And you think all of the old stock ammo got shot up just in time to switch to the new barrels which were all made at the same factory on the same tooling? Really?

Oh, how brilliant you aren't. Lowe of Berlin made the 1891's and then DWM got them. This brings us to the 1909's which where made by DWM, but Argentina also made 1909's. So tell me, how could the barrels all be made on the same machinery. Also tell if why they would switch back and forth in rifling twists, having to setup the machines over and over, and yes they probably didn't shoot up all the ammo. In reality the slower twist probably would have been okay to shoot the longer heavier bullets albeit with not as great accuracy.

Case type rimless, bottlenecked
Bullet diameter 7.65mm (.311 In)
Neck diameter 8.78 mm (0.346 in)
Shoulder diameter 10.90 mm (0.429 in)
Base diameter 12.01 mm (0.473 in)
Rim diameter 12.05 mm (0.474 in)
Rim thickness 1.00 mm (0.039 in)
Case length 53.60 mm (2.110 in)
Overall length 76.00 mm (2.992 in)
Case capacity 3.70 cm³ (57 gr H2O)
Rifling twist 280 mm (1 in 11.02 in)
Primer type Large rifle
Maximum pressure 390.00 MPa (56,565 psi

Lothar Walther web page: European systems barrel blanks.

7,65x53Arg. .301bore .312groove 11.02 twist

quote:

So tell me, how could the barrels all be made on the same machinery.

That was MY question.

CIP says the twist is 280mm.

There are three of us that have them with different twists, we measured them. Two of us have had/have both twists, and the one just has the slower twist. Do you even own an Argentine SR4759?

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

So tell me, how could the barrels all be made on the same machinery.

That was MY question.

CIP says the twist is 280mm.

Actually it is very simple. The barrel is rotated as the cutter is pulled in a straight line through it. To change the twist, one need only change the rate at which the barrel rotates (or the rate at which the cutter is pulled) during the cutting process.

That's how come custom barrel makers can rifle barrels from .14 to .600 or larger on the same machine, with a twist appropriate to whatever the barrel they are rifling.

It would not be any more difficult if the barrel was static, and the cutter was turned and pulled at the same time.

The same logic applies when running a button through a barrel instead of a cutter, and whether the button is pulled or pushed through.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
There are three of us that have them with different twists, we measured them. Two of us have had/have both twists, and the one just has the slower twist. Do you even own an Argentine SR4759?

Sure and I reload and shoot them.
I even have a stash of .313 Speer bullets.
You might contact some of the Argentine members here about the twist.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
There are three of us that have them with different twists, we measured them. Two of us have had/have both twists, and the one just has the slower twist. Do you even own an Argentine SR4759?

Sure and I reload and shoot them.
I even have a stash of .313 Speer bullets.
You might contact some of the Argentine members here about the twist.

So you can't measure the twist on a couple of your many Arg rifles? Arm broken?

Alberta; How do you like my new signature I told you I always liked it!

Not bad, but I never thought she'd leave me like that for some "slick dude".

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Not bad, but I never thought she'd leave me like that for some "slick dude".

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
There are three of us that have them with different twists, we measured them. Two of us have had/have both twists, and the one just has the slower twist. Do you even own an Argentine SR4759?

Sure and I reload and shoot them.
I even have a stash of .313 Speer bullets.
You might contact some of the Argentine members here about the twist.

So you can't measure the twist on a couple of your many Arg rifles? Arm broken?

Measure the twist of multiple rifles for the sake of this thread? Maybe later.

I am more interested in the twist and bore dimensions of the Belgian 1889 rifles.
Do you have any of them?

I think my 91 carbine has a 1:9.8 twist, I remember it as being 1:10 but perhaps I just thought that was "close enough" to decide if it would stabilize the Woodleigh 215 gr. RNs. It does.

I was looking through my W.W. Greener book the other day and came upon a chart in there of specifications on a number of older military rifles. He listed the twist on the 7.65 at 9.842 and the bullet was a 219 grain round nose. Now that makes sense that a bullet that long would have the 9.842. As for the other 7.65's and the ones made in the 1909 model having what other claim of twists between 10 and 11 I cannot answer. Out of all the ones I've owne, including the 1909 Model all have that 9.8 twist.