A couple of day's ago I "located" a WWII German officer's pistol my father brought back from Germany in 1945 that I hadn't seen for 15 or 20 years and assmued was lost. (Turned out my younger brother had it under wraps) Both gun and holster are in very good condition and we have in the past fired 32 ACP ammo through it. I have since discovered that the pistol "may" have considerable collector value, particularly if the weapon still functions.

What concerns me is the barrel diameter/bullet size. We have always assumed that the pistol's barrel probably was 7.62mm while I believe the 32 ACP fires a 7.65 diameter bullet. I wouldn't be concerned firing lead bullets but wonder about the .003 difference in size in a jacketed slug possibly causing damage to the pistol. Your opinions? I probably will not get the pistol back until the weekend and therefore cannot supply any numbers or other markings at this time.

F. Prefect

If the pistol is chambered for 32 ACP it will safely fire any and all factory 32 ACP ammo. That is, of course, assuming that the pistol is in a safe operating condition.

It is the same. John Browning was quite shrewd with his inventions. Licensing both to Colt (for the USA concession) and at the same time to FN (for the Europe concession).

But of course the American market required an "American" calibre in inches and the European market a "European" calibre in metric.

So .32 ACP is the same as 7.65mm Browning and .25 ACP is the same as 6.35mm Browning. Similare for .380 ACP and 9mm Kurz.

The extra two thou is just how one set of "rules" applies to defining bore bullet "name". So even today .300 Holland and Holland, .308 Norma Magnum and 7.62mm NATO! All firing the same diameter bullet!

As long as it is marked 7.65mm you gun is a .32 ACP. If it is marked 7.62mm or 7.63mm then it's a Tokarev or a Mauser...but clearly it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
It is the same. John Browning was quite shrewd with his inventions. Licensing both to Colt (for the USA concession) and at the same time to FN (for the Europe concession).

But of course the American market required an "American" calibre in inches and the European market a "European" calibre in metric.

So .32 ACP is the same as 7.65mm Browning and .25 ACP is the same as 6.35mm Browning. Similare for .380 ACP and 9mm Kurz.

The extra two thou is just how one set of "rules" applies to defining bore bullet "name". So even today .300 Holland and Holland, .308 Norma Magnum and 7.62mm NATO! All firing the same diameter bullet!

As long as it is marked 7.65mm you gun is a .32 ACP. If it is marked 7.62mm or 7.63mm then it's a Tokarev or a Mauser...but clearly it isn't.

Unfortunatley, the I do not have the gun with me and probably will not until this weekend and am unsure what it is "marked". I was in hopes that someone might recognized the description and be able to tell what chambering the Germans used when manufacturing this small semi-auto pistol that was typically a side arm carried by German officers. I have fired 32 ACP cartridges in it in the past and just wanted to be sure if in fact it was a 7.62 barrel whether or not firing the 7.65 rounds might pose a problem as far as damaging the pistol. If I can get any markings on the weapon from my brother I will post them later, but 7.65 32 APC ammo has worked in the past.

thanks for the help,
F. Prefect

There were numerous 32's distributed within the Reich.----

Walther, Sauer, Mauser, FN, CZ, DW, Beretta, Metalwarn etc, etc

Anything Nazi marked has an increasing collector value.

Thanks for all the information. Much appreciated.

F. Prefect

They are supposed to be the same but they are not. I have a CZ83 in 7.65mm Browning. The barrel slugs at .308/.309 and the ammo sold by Fiocchi and Sellier & Bellot uses .308/.309 bullets. 32 ACP barrels usually slug nearer to .312 and guess what, .32 ACP ammo usually uses .312 bullets. I reload most of my own and one can buy .309 bullets here in Europe with no problem.

So, in the real world they are not quite the same. Will using .32 ACP in a pistol made for 7,65mm Browning destroy it? Probably not. I just choose to load with bullets which are correct for the bore.

From another forum:



"After buying a new CZ83/7.65 I noticed visual differences between ammo brands. I did a little research and analysis and reported it here many years ago. Here is a cut and paste of it (including a response to a question) for members who have joined more recently. Note, long mother post!

For those of you fortunate enough to own the greatest .32 auto ever made, I have a few tips to share about ammo. After slugging the bore and finding it to be .308-.309, I went to work on pulling and measuring every brand of bullet I could find. All the US made brands came in at .310 to .312. Fiocchi at .307* and S&B at .308. The cases were even more divergent. Both the Fiocchi and S&B cases had a wider groove between the rim and the case. If you compare how the extractor settles into this gap with European vs US made ammo, you will see that it can fit into the gap on European ammo and it cannot with US ammo--it sticks up a little bit. Likewise the brass walls on European ammo is thicker. In the case of S&B, a lot thicker. Even though it has a smaller bullet in it, the OD of the case near the front with a seated bullet, is actually larger than the US stuff with fatter bullets. The US brands have thinner brass walls. Bottom line is, European ammo fits your gun and US stuff probably does not fit so well. The fact that this gun is built so robustly means it will digest all of them with aplomb. But, I suspect you will find what I have discovered--the S&B 73 gr FMC is more accurate than any of the US made offerings. Not coincidently, it is also the brand that has the same dimensions as your gun, the others don't.

*Fiochhi 60gr hollow points all miked at .306. See next post about ballistics of this load

I have chronographed a half dozen different 32 auto/7.65mm loads thru my CZ83. Nothing remarkable to report for most of them. Typically they shoot right about where you would expect--a few fps under what the factory spec sheet says. I was surprised to see that all the different loads I tried were rather consistant, only a very small difference between the slowest and fastest round in a string of 10.

One load surprised me. The Fiocchi 60 gr hollowpoint. After shooting a bunch of Winchester, Remington, Federal, Sellier & Bellot, Fiocchi 71/73 gr stuff, I loaded the first clip of the 60 gr Fiocchi hollowpoints. Remember, I had just finished squeezing off a few hundred rounds and everyone of them went "pop". Well, not the 60 gr Fiocchi's!! It went BOOM! and it was the first round to actually have some recoil. The empty ejected about 10 feet out of the gun and when I looked at the chronograph, I couldn't believe my eyes. 1248 fps!! I thought this might be a fluke and fired again. YIKES! 1253 fps!! Enough already. I didn't shoot anymore of the 60 grainers and got an email off to Fiocchi suggesting the things were probably loaded over SAAMI spec. I got a prompt reply saying that the 1250 fps was not alarming, but he hinted that maybe they do load the 60 grainers to a little higher pressure than the other .32 auto ammo they supply.

Accuracy. If I can't say something nice about someone, I prefer to not say anything about them. So, I will only report on which load was the most (by far) accurate. It was the S&B 73 gr FMC. I am convinced that the European brands will probably shoot better in most guns as the dimensions are more similar to the gun than the US ammo. btw, This S&B stuff is getting easier and easier to find and is priced right. I just bought a bunch of it at the Denver gun show for $7.99 per 50. Cheaper Than Dirt usually has it in stock too.

Farwood, I should have pointed out that these ammo discrepencies are unique to the .32/7.65mm. The problem is that this cartridge has been around so long (100 years!) and been built by so many US and European companies that eventually everyone got to coming up with their own dimensions. The .308 is true to the original. It appears the Americans bastardized it to accomodate various other .32 bullets like the .32-20 which is a .312 diameter. North American Arms told me they consider a .314 barrel diameter to be within spec on their .32's. I didn't mean to speak poorly of US ammo makers. It's just that Euro guns tend to have diameters around .308 and so is the ammo. US guns tend to have bores of .312 and so is the ammo. The issue of the groove in the base of the cartridge is the same thing. This groove is tiny on US stuff and very big on Euro stuff--ammo and guns. btw, the S&B ammo that I like so much does have one drawback. It is kind of dirty. It leaves a residue buildup quicker than most Winchester or Remington ammo. It is easy to clean out but it does seem to build up faster."

"I have discovered--the S&B 73 gr FMC"

As fate would have it, I ordered a couple boxes of exactly the same brand, as well as weight and bullet shape today.

Thanks for all of the interesting and valuable information.

F. Prefect

Well I've finally got some additional info on the WWII German 32 APC officer's pistol. The following is found on the slide.

Deutsche Werke Aktiengesellschaft
Werk Erfurt. Also some kind of crest followed by the letters NPp. One the reverse side is what appears to be the capital letter N on it's side followed by a circled star with what appears to be the letter t on it's side.

Barrel markings. The same letter N (Z) with star and t. CAL 7.65 mm

It has an unusual safety (at least to me). When a round is chambered, pushing a button on the left side of the weapon causes a "bar" on the back of the grip to extend outward about about 3/16th to 1/4". Just by squezzing the grip takes the gun OFF safety.

Overall Length. 6.25 inches
Height 4.0 inches
Mag. cap. 9 rounds.

Gun shows very slight wear (missing blue) on slide near muzzle. No rust anywhere. Holster very well worn but still flexable with no cracks.

What have I got?

F. Prefect

Sounds to be this:

http://www.buymilsurp.com/inde...popup_image&pID=5015

http://www.buymilsurp.com/ortg...c839499265b709679040